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Becoming a Purpose Driven Church (An Interview with Rick Warren, Part 1)
Editor's Note: The following is a re-published version of an inspiring interview with Pastor Rick Warren from 2002, and the principles are still extremely relevant to where the church is today. Pass this one along...
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Recent Articles
What’s the Difference Between Leading and Managing?
If you want to know the temperature of your church, put the thermometer in your own mouth. That’s what my old ministry professor used to say—and he was right. You can’t take your church any farther than you’ve gone yourself. That’s why leadership matters so much in ministry.You’ve probably heard it said: Everything rises or falls on leadership. That’s never more true than in your church. I’ve seen churches in great locations that struggle, and churches in terrible locations that thrive. The difference is leadership. And, thankfully, you don’t have to have a charismatic personality to be a great leader.What makes a leader effective? Not charisma, but vision.Leadership Starts with VisionWhether you lead a whole church or a specific ministry area, your primary job is to keep the vision clear. You need to be able to answer this question: Why are we here? If you don’t know, you can’t lead.When I served as senior pastor at Saddleback, my job was to keep us focused on the original New Testament purpose of the church. That got harder the larger our church became. When we were small, people came because they were spiritually hungry—not for programs. But as we grew and added ministries, we began attracting more transfers from other churches. And every one of those transfers came with baggage.Often the first thing out of their mouths was, “At our old church, we did it like this . . .”I had to learn to graciously and repeatedly say: “We’re not trying to copy another church’s vision. We’re pursuing this vision.”So we communicated that vision over and over—in our new members class, our church newsletter, and just about every way we could. The “why” behind what we did was always front and center.The Difference Between Leading and ManagingSo what’s the difference between leading and managing?It comes down to this: Management is about analysis, problem-solving, and planning. Leadership is about vision and values—and communicating both.Most churches are over-managed and under-led. That leads to what I call “paralysis of analysis.”It’s like, “Ready . . . aim . . . aim . . . aim . . .” but they never fire.Don’t get me wrong. Churches need management, too. Without it, you get the opposite problem: “Ready . . . fire!” with no aiming at all.You need both. But if you, as the leader, don’t clarify the vision and values, no one else will.Why Vision MattersProverbs 29:18 says, “Where there is no vision, the people perish” (KJV). Some people dream big dreams but never turn them into anything actionable. Vision is a pragmatic dream—a dream you can implement. It’s specific. Nothing becomes dynamic until it becomes specific.When I look back on Saddleback’s first service, I’m still amazed at what God has done. What began with just a small group of people and a simple vision grew into a global movement.That’s the power of a God-given vision.Pastor, Here’s What to Do NextAsk God to clarify your vision.Repeat it often to your church.Lead with vision. Manage with wisdom. Do both.But never let management crowd out your leadership. Because your people can’t follow where you haven’t led.
How to Adapt to Lead a Growing Church
Pastor, before your church can grow to the next level, you need to understand the stage you're in now. Different stages of church growth require different leadership skills. You won’t lead a church of 400 the same way you lead a church of 40.There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, it’s by God’s design. But it does mean you need to be willing to grow and change if you want your church to do the same.Here’s a simple framework I’ve used for decades. It identifies three types of churches, each with unique structures and leadership needs:1. Single-Cell Churches (under 200 people)In a single-cell church, one group of people make up the entire church. There are only a few ministry groups, and relationships are close. Everyone knows everyone else. This stage often feels like a family.At this level, the pastor operates like an owner/operator. You do everything: printing bulletins, unlocking the church, sweeping floors, and preaching. You're the entrepreneur keeping everything going.Many pastors love this stage because it feels personal and manageable. But if your church is going to grow beyond this, something has to change.2. Multiple-Cell Churches (200-300 people)In this stage, the church includes multiple groups: small groups, Sunday school classes, men's and women's ministries, and more. It’s no longer possible for the pastor to do everything.The pastor’s role must shift to manager/supervisor. You begin building a team. You train and empower others. Instead of doing all the ministry yourself, your role is to lead others who do ministry.This is where many churches get stuck. The transition from operator to manager is difficult. You must learn to delegate and trust others with key responsibilities.Your worship services also need to improve. In a small church, people overlook imperfections because it's like family. But once your church hits 300, people are attending for different reasons. They may not have personal connections yet, so they’re evaluating the church based on the worship experience, teaching, and excellence.3. Multiple-Congregation Churches (400+ people)Larger churches function as a congregation of congregations. Ministries—like children’s, men’s, and women’s ministries—become self-contained congregations within the church, each with their own leaders and programs.At this level, the pastor must become an executive leader. This doesn’t mean controlling everything. In fact, you need to let go of many day-to-day decisions. The executive pastor and leadership team handle the details.Your primary roles become:Setting the visionPreaching and teachingMaking high-level decisionsAs the church grows, the pulpit becomes the most powerful tool to set direction. People follow the vision you cast from the stage.You Can’t Be Great at Every Stage—and That’s OkayIt’s rare to find a pastor who is naturally skilled at all three of these stages. Most leaders thrive in one. That’s why it’s so important to build a team that complements your gifts.Personally, I struggled in the manager stage. I was great doing it all myself or stepping back to lead at a high level—but not at managing. Saddleback got stuck for a time until I learned to surround myself with people who were strong supervisors and administrators.Wherever you are now, I want to encourage you: Stick to the vision God gave you. You might be hauling gear in and out of your garage every Sunday. I’ve been there too. Don’t give up. Trust God to grow you as he grows your church.How to Prepare for the Next StageIn a single-cell church, growth comes by adding new cells. Start more groups, more classes, even more services. Multiply your church’s connection points.In a multiple-cell church, improve the worship experience. Make it excellent and relevant. Recognize that people are no longer coming primarily because of friendships—they’re coming to see if your church is worth their time and trust.In a multiple-congregation church, focus on staff management. Delegate well. Develop leaders. Protect your time so you can lead with clarity and preach with power.As your church grows, your leadership must grow too.You don’t need to be everything. You just need to be willing to change. Let God shape you into the kind of leader your church needs at each stage.God has placed you in your church for a reason. Keep growing, and keep leading with vision and humility.
Jesus Is Praying for You, Pastor
“Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” Romans 8:34 (NIV)Pastor, before you preach your first sermon this week, counsel that couple, or walk into yet another meeting, take a breath and remember this: Jesus is already praying for you.He knows everything you’re about to face. He’s not surprised by the weight of ministry. He knows the email waiting in your inbox, the hospital visit coming on Wednesday, the spiritual attack you can’t quite name yet—and he’s already interceding.That’s what it means to be omniscient. He knows the past, present, and future—all at once. And in his perfect knowledge, he’s lifting you up in prayer.The night before the cross, Jesus told Peter, “I have prayed that you will not lose your faith! Help your brothers be stronger when you come back to me” (Luke 22:32 NCV). Jesus knew Peter was about to blow it. He knew the shame and self-doubt that would follow. But he prayed for Peter in advance—and he prayed with a view toward restoration and future ministry.In the same way, Jesus has already prayed you through what’s ahead.You may feel like you're running on fumes today. Maybe your heart is heavy from burdens your people can’t see. But Jesus sees. Jesus knows. And Jesus is praying.The Son of God is at the right hand of the Father, interceding for you (Romans 8:34). That truth alone can carry you through anything you’ll face this week.You’re not leading alone. You’re not preaching alone. You’re not suffering alone.Jesus is with you—and he’s praying for you.
The Lies Your People Believe—and How to Counter Them
Pastor, every week when you stand before your congregation, you’re not just preaching to believers—you’re preaching into a world filled with competing worldviews. People bring those views into your church every Sunday. They shape how your members see relationships, success, money, purpose, and even God.Worldview matters. It’s not just academic or philosophical. People live their lives based on their worldview—whether they realize it or not. If you want to see transformation in your people, you must help them change how they view the world. Romans 12:2 says, "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (NIV).Here are six of the most common worldviews that are shaping the people in your pews—and how God’s Word responds to each one.1. The one with the most toys wins.This is materialism. It’s the belief that life is about acquiring more. More stuff. More money. More success.But Jesus said, "Life does not consist in an abundance of possessions" (Luke 12:15 NIV). Real life isn’t about what you own—it’s about who owns you. The greatest things in life aren’t things.2. I’ve got to think of myself first.This is the worldview of individualism. It’s the mindset behind many cultural slogans: “Have it your way.” “Obey your thirst.” “You deserve it.”It’s a self-centered life that destroys marriages, divides churches, and corrodes communities.Jesus taught the opposite: "If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it" (Matthew 16:25 NLT).True life comes from giving yourself away—to God and to others.3. Do what feels good.This is hedonism—the belief that the goal of life is to feel good, be comfortable, and have fun.But Scripture is clear. The Message paraphrase says: "Are you addicted to thrills? What an empty life! The pursuit of pleasure is never satisfied" (Proverbs 21:17).Chasing pleasure doesn’t satisfy. It leaves people empty. God created us for more than comfort—he created us for a calling.4. Whatever works for you.This is pragmatism. In today’s world, the only “wrong” seems to be telling someone else they’re wrong. Truth becomes subjective. People say, “If it works for you, that’s fine.”But the Bible warns us: "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverbs 14:12 NIV).Truth isn’t whatever works. It’s what God says is right.5. God doesn’t exist.This is naturalism, or atheism. It claims that life is an accident, that there is no Creator and no ultimate purpose.But Paul writes: "Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God" (Romans 1:20 NLT).Creation points to a Creator. If there’s no God, life has no meaning. But God made you—and everyone you preach to—for a purpose.6. You are your own god.This is humanism—a worldview that says we are in control of our own destiny. It’s behind the belief that we’re the masters of our fate and the captains of our souls.But Romans 1:25 says, "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator" (NIV).Every human being is wired to worship. If we don’t worship God, we’ll worship something else—even ourselves.A Biblical WorldviewAll of these worldviews have consequences. And most people don’t even realize how deeply influenced they are by them.There’s only one worldview that leads to the life God has planned for you: a biblical worldview. The biblical worldview says: God created us for his purposes. We are not our own. We exist for his glory.Pastor, if you want to change people’s lives, help them change their worldview first. When their minds are renewed, their hearts will follow.
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