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Becoming a Purpose Driven Church (An Interview with Rick Warren, Part 1)
Editor's Note: The following is a re-published version of an inspiring interview with Pastor Rick Warren from 2002, and the principles are still extremely relevant to where the church is today. Pass this one along...
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Recent Articles
Stop Trying to Impress from the Pulpit
Pastor, every time you step up to preach, you make a quiet decision: Will you work to impress people, or to influence them?You can impress people from a distance. But you can only influence people up close. And when people get close, they see the warts. That scares a lot of pastors, but it shouldn't. That's where ministry actually happens.One of the problems in ministry is that we take ourselves way too seriously and don't take God seriously enough. We get impressed with ourselves instead of being impressed with God. That's backwards. You don't stand up to preach so people walk away impressed with you. You preach so they walk away in awe of God.Humor and humility belong together.Humor and humility go together. When you can laugh at yourself, you remind people you're human, and the distance between the pulpit and the pew gets smaller. People quit wondering whether you're performing and start actually listening.During my years pastoring Saddleback, other pastors and I had fun with each other in front of the congregation. We teased each other. We laughed. We never acted like ministry meant pretending to be holier than the people in the seats.Pastors who can't laugh at themselves will have a hard time building a warm church. And people who are stiff in the hallway are usually stiff in the pulpit too. Tightness follows them right up to preach. If everything about you tells people to stay impressed, they'll keep their distance. But if you come across like a real person, they'll lean in.Be approachable and real.If you want to create a climate where people want to join, your church has to be authentic. An authentic church always starts with authentic leaders. You personally have to be approachable and real, because whatever you are, your people will become.There's no one right personality for building a healthy church; God uses every kind. But all the effective leaders I know are working to make the most of what God gave them.A lot of pastors, just by their demeanor, guarantee visitors won't come back. I've said for years that some churches would grow if the pastor would simply start smiling. Sometimes I get the feeling that pastors love crowds but hate people. If you want to know the temperature of your church, put the thermometer in your own mouth. Your people take their cues from you. A cold leader makes a cold church. And people feel that same warmth, or that same chill, the second you open your mouth to preach.Talk like a normal person.Another way to stop focusing on impressing people is to quit using inflated language. A lot of church follow-up messages to visitors read like this: "We would like to extend a cordial invitation for you to be with us on the next Lord's Day." Instead, just say, "It was good to have you. I hope you'll come back." Write it the way you talk.The same thing happens in the pulpit. Some pastors preach in a voice they'd never use in a living room or a hospital room, and the sermon comes out formal and stiff. It sounds religious. It doesn't help anybody. Jesus spoke so ordinary people could understand him. He told stories. He used pictures from everyday life. He didn't bury the truth under a pile of religious words. You're not up there to sound impressive; you're up there to be understood.Preach for life change, not approval.Getting close to people isn't just about being warm. You get close so your preaching can actually change how they live, and that only happens when you stop preaching to be admired. The goal of preaching is not to impress other pastors, or professors, or critics. The goal of preaching is life change. God's aim is to make people like Christ, so that has to be your aim too. If your preaching isn't producing Christlike convictions, character, and conduct, it's missing the point, no matter how polished it sounds.A sermon can be accurate and still leave people exactly where they were. It can be full of information and never once call anyone to obey. The problem in most churches isn't that people know too little; it’s that they already know far more than they're doing. Jesus said, "Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them" (John 13:17 NIV). The blessing shows up when they do it, not just when they hear it.Some pastors are scared to be practical because they think it sounds simplistic. They won't even say "how to" in a sermon for fear another pastor will look down on them. So settle it now: Are you preaching to see changed lives, or to please the professors you had in seminary and the pastors down the street?Influence happens up close.Challenge your people to obey. But do it as a fellow sinner saved by grace, not as a bully or a know-it-all. Preach with confidence in God's Word and honesty about yourself, and people will trust the message and the person delivering it.Before you preach this weekend, ask who you're really trying to reach. You can impress people from a distance. You can only influence them up close, close enough to see you're real and close enough that your preaching actually moves them to obey God. So quit preaching for image. Get near the people God has put in front of you, tell them the truth in plain words, and preach for the kind of changed lives that impressing people will never produce.
Your Panic Button for Temptation
"Run from all these evil things." 1 Timothy 6:11 (NLT)Pastor, do you have an escape plan for the moment you're tempted? Do you have anything in place to keep you away from your biggest temptations before they ever reach you? If you don't have those things, you need them now.You carry more than most people ever see. And that weight is part of what makes certain temptations so appealing: the shortcut, the secret, the compromise you're sure no one would catch.First, when you find yourself tempted, you need a panic button. An emergency plan. The Bible is clear about what that plan is: You run.Paul tells Timothy, a young pastor, "Run from all these evil things" (1 Timothy 6:11 NLT).Move quickly out of any situation that tempts you. Never argue with a temptation. You'll always lose. Emotions take over, and emotions aren't always logical.It doesn't matter what the temptation is. It could be the pull to cut a corner with money or shade the numbers you report. It could be a sexual temptation. Whatever it is, your response should be the same: Get out.But better than running from temptation is preventing it in the first place. Another way to say it is this: If you don't want to get stung, stay away from the bees.Don't wait until you're alone, exhausted, and discouraged to decide you'll stay faithful. You have to make that decision ahead of time, and then keep yourself out of the situation, because when you're empty, the pull is stronger than your willpower.The same principle runs all through ministry.If you know you get short with your family on Sunday nights when you're spent, build a strategy for it now. Guard a slower evening. Protect some quiet before the hardest stretch of your week.Don't wait until a questionable decision is sitting in front of you to decide your ministry will be above reproach. Build accountability into how you lead, with people who can ask you anything, so you're not standing in that moment by yourself.Take time today to put a few of those preventative strategies in place. And when they don't hold, keep your emergency plan ready: Don't resist temptation; run from it. That's the simplest and surest way out.
Living in the Freedom You Preach
Pastor, here in the United States this is the week we celebrate our freedom, and many of you will work a line about it into Sunday's sermon. If you minister in another country, stay with me. The freedom I most want for you was never about a flag anyway. So here is the harder question: Are you actually free?A lot of us preach freedom in Christ on Sunday and then live all week as if everything depends on us. We can't stop working. We feel guilty when we rest. We lie awake running tomorrow's list.We have a name for that today: workaholism. The Bible doesn't use the word, but it has plenty to say about it. And "dedicated" isn't it.“Don’t wear yourself out trying to get rich. Be wise enough to know when to quit" (Proverbs 23:4 NLT). God honors hard work, but he calls wearing yourself out foolishness. Ecclesiastes says it even more bluntly: "Only someone too stupid to find his way home would wear himself out with work" (Ecclesiastes 10:15 GNT).So why do we do it? Why do we run ourselves into the ground for a church that belongs to Jesus anyway? It usually comes down to what is driving us underneath.Notice what's really driving youFor most of us, the engine is insecurity. There is a voice that whispers, "You're a nobody. Prove yourself." So you keep working to prove your worth. And that voice is never satisfied. You finish something good, and the voice says, "That's fine, but it's not enough." So you work more.For others, it is worry. "I am worn out by my worries," the psalmist said (Psalm 55:2 GNT). You can't afford a day off, because the fear of dropping the ball keeps you going.And sometimes, if you’re honest, it’s comparison. You look at the church down the road or the pastor with the bigger platform, and you tell yourself you just need to do a little more.None of those chains come from God. They come from inside you. And Jesus wants to set you free from every one of them.Realize your worthThe first step toward freedom is settling the question your insecurity keeps asking."See how much the Father has loved us! His love is so great that we are called God's children—and so, in fact, we are" (1 John 3:1 GNT). God says you are precious in his sight (Isaiah 43:4).When that truth finally sinks past your head and into your heart, a load lifts off your back. You stop having to prove yourself. God already loves you. He already approves of you. You don't have to earn it in the pulpit on Sunday.So ask yourself the freedom question: What am I trying to prove, and to whom?Enjoy what God has already givenFreedom also means contentment."All of us should eat and drink and enjoy what we have worked for. It is God's gift" (Ecclesiastes 3:13 GNT). For most of us, the pull isn't money. It's more. A bigger crowd. A stronger program. More influence. We get so fixated on the church we wish we had that we miss the one God actually gave us.But the people in your pews this Sunday are a gift. This season of ministry, limits and all, is a gift. Contentment is learning to receive what God has given instead of resenting what he hasn't.So enjoy the people he has actually entrusted to you and the work he has actually called you to. Ask yourself: How much would finally be enough?Limit your labor on purposeHere is where freedom gets practical. Limiting your work is a decision, not a feeling."You have six days in which to do your work, but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to me" (Exodus 20:9-10 GNT). God built rest into the week. When you refuse to take it, you are not being more faithful. You are arguing with the way he made you.So put it on paper. Decide how many hours you’ll work, how many evenings you’ll be at home, which day you’ll take off. If you need to, ask someone to hold you to it.The freedom you preach is yours to liveThis week, while the fireworks go off and you remind your people that Christ has set their spirits free, hear it for yourself. You don't have to prove anything. You don't have to try to carry what only God really can carry.The church is his. Your worth is settled. So work hard this week. Then stop. Rest in the freedom you keep preaching to everyone else.
Refuse the Hook: When Critics Want a Fight
"If someone does wrong to you, do not pay him back by doing wrong to him. Try to do what everyone thinks is right. Do your best to live in peace with everyone." Romans 12:17-18 (NCV)Pastor, can God bring something good out of being criticized, attacked, or treated unfairly in ministry?He can. It's just hard to believe in the moment, when the email lands, when the comment thread turns ugly, when someone in your own church decides you're the problem.When someone wrongs you, the pull to defend yourself or set the record straight is strong. But God is just. It's his job to discipline, to restore, and to turn things around for good."If someone does wrong to you, do not pay him back by doing wrong to him. Try to do what everyone thinks is right. Do your best to live in peace with everyone. My friends, do not try to punish others when they wrong you, but wait for God to punish them with his anger. It is written: 'I will punish those who do wrong; I will repay them,' says the Lord" (Romans 12:17-19 NCV).Notice the words "do your best." In other words, live in peace with everyone as much as possible. God says it that way because he knows ministry sometimes puts you near some people who are almost impossible to get along with. When you're attacked, God is asking you to walk away, not to retaliate. You might say, "But you don't know what they've done. They've hurt me. They've hurt my family. I want to get even."Here's why it’s so powerful to walk away. Critics want to hook you. They want your attention, your reaction, your time. They can't stand being ignored. It's the same online, where it feels almost impossible to leave an attack sitting in the comments without answering. But when you refuse to react, you take the control back. If they can't engage you, they can't control you.Anytime you say, "You make me so mad," you've handed someone else the controls to your own heart. You don't want to do that. Don't give anyone that kind of power over you.Romans 12 puts a choice in front of you: Will you take revenge yourself, or leave the situation in God’s hands?Refuse to retaliate. Walk away. Let it go. And let God do his work.
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