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Becoming a Purpose Driven Church (An Interview with Rick Warren, Part 1)
Editor's Note: The following is a re-published version of an inspiring interview with Pastor Rick Warren from 2002, and the principles are still extremely relevant to where the church is today. Pass this one along...
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Jon Walker: You’re known for saying that pastors need to be more "lost" centered, that is, looking at their church from the perspective of someone who doesn’t go to church. Could you elaborate on that? Rick Warren: The most overlooked principle for church growth is we have to love people the way Jesus did. That’s it! The motive behind everything we’ve done at Saddleback is that we love and care about lost people. The reason Jesus attracted such large crowds is because he loved people. On the other hand, I’ve heard churches justify their lack of growth by saying, "We’re small because we haven’t watered down the Gospel.” But maybe the real reason they don’t have a crowd is because they don't want a crowd! They love their own comfort more than they love lost people. To reach unbelievers you have to move outside your own comfort zone and do things that often feel awkward and uncomfortable to you. It takes unselfish people to grow a church. Lost people have a lot of problems and their lives are messy. It’s not by accident that Jesus compared evangelism to fishing. Fishing is often messy and smelly. So many churches want the fish they catch to be prescaled, gutted, cleaned and cooked. That’s why they never reach anyone. If your church is serious about reaching the unchurched, you must be willing to put up with people who have a lot of problems. The secret of reaching unbelievers is learning to think like an unbeliever. But the problem is – the longer you’re a Christian, the less you think like an unbeliever. And if you’re a seminary-trained pastor, you’re even more removed from unbelievers. You think like a pastor, not a pagan. So you have to intentionally learn to think like an unbeliever again. Paul says, "I become all things to all men so I may, in some way, win some.” What he meant was he let his target determine his approach. When with Jews, he communicated like a Jew. When he was with Gentiles, he communicated like a Gentile. I’m sure if Paul came to Southern California, he’d learn to communicate in Southern Californian terms. Some people think that communicating differently in different cultures is just being a chameleon, but actually it means you're being strategic. You don’t compromise the message. That message is, the faith once delivered for the saints, and we don’t have an option to change the message. But the methods of sharing it have to change with every new generation and location. The programs and tools we used when I was a youth pastor in inner city LA were different from those used as a short-term missionary in Japan, and those methods were different from what we’re doing now at Saddleback. There is no one way to grow a church! It takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. If you’re getting the job done – lives are being changed – then I like the way you’re doing it, whether or not it’s my style of ministry. Walker: In other words, you’re not interested in Saddleback clones. Warren: Absolutely not! Not one of the dozens of mission churches we’ve planted is doing it exactly like us. We believe every church must have its own unique thumbprint. That’s what The Purpose Driven Church is all about. If a principle is biblical, I believe it is transcultural. In other words, it will work anywhere. But you must filter those principles through the culture of the community, the makeup of the congregation, and the personality of the pastor. Purpose Driven churches are all committed to the same five New Testament purposes of the church, but these congregations come in all sizes, shapes, and cultures. God’s purposes for the church never change, but the programs and methods do. Look around and it’s obvious that God loves variety. He loves to do things in more than one way! Walker: What about prayer and dedication? Is the growth of a church based upon the pastor’s commitment? Warren: It’s a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastors' conferences promote that myth - leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged. We’ve all heard speakers claim, "If you’ll just pray more, preach the Word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow.” Well, that’s just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they’re committed and Spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine. For instance, in my own denomination about 70 percent of the churches are either plateaued or declining. Is that because 70 percent of our pastors are not dedicated? Of course not. It’s a complete myth. If dedication is all that is needed to grow a church, 99 percent of our churches should be growing today, because most pastors are genuinely dedicated. But growing a healthy church is not that easy or simple. It involves many different factors and requires certain leadership skills. Any time you hear a person say, "This is the one way to growth,” you can be sure they’re wrong because there are many keys to growth. That’s why I'm convinced that the key issue for our congregations in the 21st century is church health - not church growth. Focusing on church growth is the wrong focus. If we’ll focus on developing healthy churches, they will grow automatically. All living things grow – if they are healthy! I don’t have to tell my kids to grow. They do it automatically. Now, what makes a healthy church? The answer is "balance,” just like in the human body. Your body has a number of different systems: a circulatory system, a skeletal system, respiratory system, central nervous system, digestive system and others. When these systems are in balance we call that “health.” When they are out of balance, we call it, “dis-ease,” disease. Likewise the Body of Christ, the church, is made up of different systems, each fulfilling a different purpose: for worship, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, and ministry. When you have a healthy system or process for each of these purposes, and these systems are balanced, the church naturally grows! But here’s the catch: unless you set up an intentional strategy and structure to ensure balance between the five purposes of the church, then your church will tend to overemphasize the purpose the pastor feels most passionate about. If he has a heart for evangelism, the church may reach lots of people, but nobody grows up in the faith. If he has a gift of teaching, the church will develop mature believers, but will tend to neglect winning the lost. If he has pastoral gifts, the church will have great fellowship and care, but the church’s ministry to the community will suffer or there will be little evangelism. You must set up a Purpose Driven structure that allows the church to become more than just an extension of its pastor. Every church is driven by something: tradition, programs, finances, events, seekers, and even buildings. But to be healthy, it must become Purpose Driven. They need a strategy that will help them grow warmer through fellowship, deeper through discipleship, stronger through worship, broader through ministry and larger through evangelism. Sadly, many churches are personality driven. This puts the congregation in a very precarious position if the leader dies, moves, or has a moral failure. At Saddleback we’ve built the church on purpose, not personality. If I were to die right now, we’d lose maybe 10 percent of the “fringe” people who come to hear me, but that would still leave 90 percent of the other people to attend each week. No church is perfect but you can be healthy without being perfect. Walker: Saddleback has no committees. I’m wondering – can you be a church and not have committees? (Laughter) Warren: That’s funny. It’s true that we have no committees, but we do have lots of different lay ministries. What’s the difference? Committees discuss but ministries do. Committees argue while ministries act. Committees maintain while ministries minister. Committees talk and consider while ministries serve and care. Committees make decisions that they expect other people to implement. At Saddleback, the implementers are the decision-makers. The people who do the ministry get to make their own decisions about that ministry. We do not separate authority from responsibility. We trust people with both. Here’s a radical question: What do these words and phrases have in common: majority rule, parliamentary procedures, ballots, boards, board meetings, business meetings, elections, voting, and committees. None of them are found in the Bible. Yet how many churches do you know that are formed on committees, boards, voting, and majority rule? What we have done is taken an American form of government and pressed it upon the church. The result is often the church is as ineffective and bureaucratic as the government is. We must remember that the church is a body not a business. It is an organism not an organization, and so God intends for it to operate on the basis of spiritual gifts, not elected offices. There is not a single example of voting to elect a pastor or any other church leader person in the New Testament. Voting was so foreign to the New Testament mind that when they chose Judas’ replacement, they cast lots. They were more likely to draw straws than vote.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2
Recent Articles
Five Ways to Lead Your Church Toward Unity
By Rick WarrenPastor, few things weigh heavier on your heart than seeing conflict among your people. Nothing breaks a shepherd's heart like watching the sheep squabble. Unity isn't just a nice bonus for your church; it's essential. In fact, Jesus taught that your church's witness depends on it. God can work through many weaknesses in your church, but he won't work through disunity.As you shepherd your people toward unity, here are five principles to guide you:1. Maintain an attitude of acceptance.Don’t major in minors. Not every issue requires total agreement. Some disagreements are simply over disputable matters. Paul addresses this in Romans 14:1-23, using the example of disagreement over dietary guidelines to remind believers not to let minor differences divide them. Instead, maintain an attitude of acceptance.Isn't it a blessing that God made us different? He loves variety! When conflict arises, your first task is to discern whether it's over essentials or non-essentials. If it's essential, address it biblically. But if it's not, lead your people to accept one another's differences.2. Focus on your common mission.Nothing unites a church more than a shared purpose. That’s why at Saddleback we always insisted that every new member go through our membership class. There, we clearly lay out the church’s purpose and direction.Your church isn’t the only church in town, and that’s okay. Other Bible-believing churches may do things differently. Make sure people know what your church is about before they join. Clarity upfront can prevent division later.3. Control your tongue.Pastor, when gossip shows up, you need to shut it down immediately—and train your leaders to do the same. Gossip is sin. When you listen to it, you become complicit. Ephesians 4:29 says, “Don’t say anything that would hurt ⸤another person⸥. Instead, speak only what is good so that you can give help wherever it is needed. That way, what you say will help those who hear you” (GW).What is gossip? It's when you share a problem or criticism with someone who is neither part of the problem nor part of the solution. If they're not involved, leave it alone. Preach on this often and remind your leadership regularly. It's that important.4. Teach your church to support church leadership.Hebrews 13:17 says, “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you” (NIV).That verse should humble every pastor. One day, you will stand before God and give an account of how you shepherded his people. That reality drives us to our knees, praying for wisdom and guidance.With that accountability comes authority. Without authority, you can't be held responsible. God gives pastors authority to lead his church. Teaching your church the biblical basis for leadership authority isn’t about propping yourself up—it’s about protecting the unity that God cherishes.5. Practice God's method of conflict resolution.Jesus outlines the process for handling conflict in Matthew 18: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along. . . . If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15-17 NIV).When someone brings you a complaint about another person, your first question should be: Have you talked to them directly? That’s where biblical conflict resolution begins.If they refuse to listen, involve one or two others. If they still won't listen, bring it before the church. And if there's still no repentance, treat them as you would an unbeliever—with love, but with clear boundaries about church membership.Jesus said that unity is a powerful witness to the world. It's not natural for people from different backgrounds to come together as one family. But when churches work together to fulfill God's mission, people notice. Unity attracts.My prayer is that your church will experience the kind of unity that honors God and draws people to the cross.
Walking a Different Path—and Why It’s Worth It
“Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.” Genesis 6:9 (NLT)Pastor, if you want to keep fulfilling your calling—and stay faithful in a world that’s resistant to the gospel—you must be willing to walk a different path than the surrounding culture.That’s not always easy, especially on a Monday morning. Maybe Sunday didn’t go the way you hoped. Maybe you’re wondering if anyone was really listening. Maybe you're tired. But your faithfulness, even in weariness, is exactly what God notices.Noah’s generation was in full rebellion against God. Genesis 6:12 says, “God observed all this corruption in the world, for everyone on earth was corrupt” (NLT). That must have felt incredibly isolating for Noah—yet he stayed the course. The Message paraphrase says it like this: “Noah was different. GOD liked what he saw in Noah” (Genesis 6:8).Let that sink in: God liked what he saw in Noah.Would he say the same of you today? Absolutely. When you preach the Word even when people don’t respond, when you pray over your congregation with love, when you lead with integrity even when it's hard—God sees. And he smiles.You don’t have to be flashy. You don’t have to go viral. You don’t even have to feel effective. Keep doing what God calls you to do. That’s what set Noah apart. He walked with God, even when the rest of the world walked away.As our world moves further from God, pastors like you shine all the brighter. Your steady, faithful ministry matters more than you realize.
Before You Say Yes: 3 Questions Every Pastor Should Ask
“If any of you needs wisdom to know what you should do, you should ask God, and he will give it to you. God is generous to everyone and doesn’t find fault with them.”James 1:5 (GW)You’re likely reading this on a Monday. Yesterday, you poured your heart for your congregation—preaching, shepherding, and leading your people. Now, you’re tired. God wants you to get your proper rest. If you’re burning the candle at both ends, you’re not as bright as you think you are. You’re going to burn out!Every week, you’re probably offered more ministry opportunities than you could take on in a month. That counseling appointment, that community invitation, that extra meeting—they’re all good things. But without wisdom, even good opportunities can become spiritual quicksand.When a new opportunity crosses your desk, take these three steps:Ask, “Is it worth it?” Will this serve the kingdom in the way God has wired you to serve? Is it worth the time, energy, and emotional bandwidth it will cost? Every “yes” is a trade—you’re giving away part of your life for it. Is it worth that kind of exchange?Ask, “What will I have to give up?” Saying “yes” to one thing means saying “no” to something else. Maybe your family. Maybe margin for prayer and reflection. Maybe the deep work God’s been calling you to. Make your “what-matters-most” list before you make your to-do list. Let God shape your priorities before your calendar does.Ask, “Should I just say no?” We’re used to running at the speed of crisis, but constant urgency isn't godly—it’s exhausting. Learning to say “no” is an act of faith. It’s trusting that God can lead your church better than you can. It’s believing your value isn’t in how much you do, but in who you are in Christ. If something isn’t on your “what-matters-most” list, it may be best just to say no.Remember, you don’t need to figure this all out on your own. James 1:5 promises that when we ask for wisdom, God gives it—generously and without shaming us for needing it.So take a breath, pastor. Take your list of opportunities to the Lord. Ask him for wisdom. Then choose what matters most—and rest knowing that obedience is more important than busyness.
How to Refuel Mid-Flight
During the Cold War, the Strategic Air Command operated 24 hours a day as a shield of protection for our nation. This meant that at any point in a given day, there were combat-configured bombers flying to assure the safety of our nation. To extend the range of these planes, the military perfected mid-flight refueling, which allowed the planes to fly longer without running out of fuel. A refueling plane would actually fly up next to a Strategic Air Command plane, dock in, and refill the plane’s fuel tank.As a pastor, you need to learn how to refuel your life in mid-flight. You can’t just hop off to Tahiti every time you get tired and discouraged. You need to keep going. You have to learn how to recharge yourself by reconnecting with God in the middle of your hectic lifestyle. The fact is, ministry takes energy. What do you do when you run out of energy? The Living Bible paraphrase of Psalm 94:19 says, “Lord, when doubts fill my mind, when my heart is in turmoil, quiet me and give me renewed hope and cheer.” Are you ever quiet? Americans are afraid of silence. It makes us very uncomfortable. The moment you get in your car, the radio goes on. The moment you get home, the TV goes on. Very little of your life is honestly quiet. But the Bible’s wisdom, in effect, says this: “If you want to lower your stress, it’s as simple as this: Shut up. Be silent. Stop talking and start listening.”Once a day, go outside, sit down, and just be quiet. I’m not talking about reading your Bible (though you also ought to read your Bible every day). I’m just talking about getting alone for five minutes a day and being completely silent. Ask God a question, and then just sit there and listen.Sometimes people say, “God, I really need your guidance on this,” and then they get up and walk off. They don’t wait for an answer. If you never hear from God, it may be that you never listen.Learn to take mini breaks during the day. When you feel your pressure rising, just stop and say, “God, I want to tune in to you again. I want to focus on you.” This doesn’t have to take 30 minutes. Take even 15 or 20 seconds—just little mini-breaks—where you stop and be quiet.Why is this important? Because the race of life is tough. Inevitably, ministry is tough. We get distracted, discouraged, and start to doubt. And you start wondering, “Maybe I shouldn’t be pursuing everything God is calling me to do in ministry. Maybe I should just coast for the next couple of months.” When you coast, you start heading downhill. You go the wrong way.Discouragement leads to doubt. How do you defeat doubt? Here are three things I remember when I’m discouraged that you can remember too:1. I remind myself of God’s goodness yesterday. I make a list of all the things he’s done in my life, and I express my thankfulness. The attitude of gratitude is the healthiest emotion you can have.2. I remember God’s presence today. I remind myself that he’s with me right now. Even when I feel like I’m completely alone, I’m not. I’ve just forgotten that he’s there with me. I remind myself that God has promised things like, “I’m here. I’m going to help you. I’ve promised I’ll never leave you or forsake you. I’m with you right now in this crisis.”3. I remind myself of God’s promises for tomorrow. There are more than 7,000 promises for us in the Bible. Each one is like a blank check that I can write out: “God, I am claiming this one today. I’m turning in this coupon.” He has said, “I will give you strength. I will give you the necessary tools to accomplish the task I’ve given you. I will give you the wisdom you need in this situation if you’ll just call on me.”I don’t need to doubt God’s goodness yesterday, God’s presence today, or God’s promises tomorrow. I don’t need to doubt. I don’t need to be discouraged. I don’t need to be distracted. I can let God renew my spirit daily.If you want to last over the long haul of ministry, you need to learn how God can help you recharge yourself spiritually, emotionally, physically and mentally. 2 Corinthians 4:16 says, “For this reason we never become discouraged. Even though our physical being is gradually decaying, yet our spiritual being is renewed day after day” (GNT). God promises to renew your spirit daily. So you need to figure out what renews you. Make a list of the things that keep you going, the things that re-energize you. Then do those things over and over.
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