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The Measure of Our Success: An Interview with Shawn Lovejoy
I've known Shawn Lovejoy for several years. He planted and has pastored Mountain Lake Church for the past 11 years, and leads the ChurchPlanters.Com conference, which I've been pleased to speak at a few times. Shawn is one of the good guys-- he loves his church, he loves his wife, and he loves pastors. As such, I was excited about his new book, The Measure of Our Success, and wanted to share the interview below with you.
How has the definition of success in ministry changed over the years, and what should be our measuring stick for success? I actually believe the pendulum has begun to swing back in a healthy direction. Twenty years ago, one of the first questions asked among two pastors in a conversation, was: "What are you running now?" In other words, "Is your church bigger than mine?" These days, I don't hear that conversation as much among my peers. I believe that's a good thing. I'm not saying church growth is not a measurement we need. It just simply cannot be the only measurement. I really believe that the ultimate measurement of success has more to do with our faithfulness, than our ministry fruitfulness. If you think about it, Jesus' call wasn't primarily about us bearing fruit. He told us to stay connected to Him, and He would bear the fruit through us. Too many of us as pastors have gotten those two things backward. You have several contributions in the book by leading pastors from around the country. How have they influenced your ministry both in your personal relationship with them and by watching them from afar? I'm amazed at the list of contributors and the contributions other pastors have made to this book: Friends like JD Greear, Mark Batterson, Tim Stevens, and Greg Surratt made this a much better book. I have learned something from all of these men. Their insights are similar, but unique to the subject matter I cover, and I wanted other pastors to hear their insights on the same subjects. These pastors are all so different and bring insights that would never have been shared otherwise. However, it takes a secure leader to learn from someone else, especially someone who's different or has different views. I always take the posture that I can learn something from anyone! Too many pastors compare, condemn, or copy other pastors who aren't just like them, because of their own insecurity. I talk about these three C's of unhealthy measurement in the book. Why do pastors fall into the trap of the 3 C's of Unhealthy Measurement (comparing, copying, and condemning) and how can they avoid them? Too many of us are insecure in our own skin. We're in some silent competition in our own minds with every other church or pastor. We feel insignificant or even unloved when God seems to bless another church more than the one we serve, rather than celebrating what is happening for the Kingdom. All of this breeds the discontentment and discouragement so many pastors feel today. Jesus said: "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." So what's our problem? As pastors we place yokes on ourselves and even other pastors that Jesus never put on us. That's why we're so weighed down. As pastors, we must come back daily to our unique callings and giftings. Most pastors will never be mega-church pastors...because they were never meant to be! I talk in the book about how we can we can take off the yoke that we're trying to put on, or someone else is trying to put on us, and live and work with Jesus' call alone on our lives. The relationship between a pastor and his wife is critical. What steps can pastors take to strengthen that relationship, both for the health of their marriage and the health of the church? What gets on the calendar gets done. What gets in the budget gets done. In the first two years of our church plant, my wife, Tricia, and I didn't take one day. We didn't have the "time" or the "money" to do so. I've since come to realize all of that rhetoric is a cop-out. The biggest lie from Hell I ever believed since planting the church, is that "when things slow down" I'll get my relationships back on track. Ministry never slows down. I must prioritize and even systemize space to cultivate not only my relationship with Jesus, but my relationships with others. Pastors, in general don't do relationships all that well. That has become increasingly important for me over the last decade. I have also learned that if I want my spouse to partner with me in ministry, I must partner with her at home. The street goes both ways. When I'm involved in her world, she wants to be more involved in mine. It hasn't always been this way, but today, Tricia and I are partners in every way. In the book, I spend a great deal of time talking about how we've done it. Why is "love" the most forgotten metric in a church? First of all, too many of us as pastors have measured our ministries by what we are against. We take these hard stances against this signaled out sin or that perceived sin. However, as I read the Gospels-- and especially Revelation-- I hear Jesus saying: "The biggest sin you can commit is to neglect love! Secondly, too many of us measure success by our expositional or creative or leadership genius, when Paul says if we all of that, and have not love, we have nothing. Zip. I truly believe pastors need to lead the church back to the way of love. I truly believe God's Word can be summed up in one word: Love. Jesus said if we get that right, everything else will take care of itself. Why do we have to complicate it? How have your ministry team values, you call it "The Code," contributed to the success of Mountain Lake Church? I've frankly never run across a church with a non-biblical mission statement. I have run across a lot of churches with unhealthy cultures. I believe that a healthy culture is the vehicle in which a biblical vision travels. "The code" at Mountain Lake protects a healthy staff and leadership culture. We hold ourselves accountable for living out the "one anothers" of the New Testament. The reason our church is unified is not because we never have conflict. Our church is unified today because the leaders have held our church accountable to handle conflict God's way and speak the truth in love. How should pastors deal with criticism of their ministry or their church? First of all, too many pastors equate a lack of criticism with success. If everyone's happy, then we must be doing our jobs right. However, as I look at prophets of both the Old and New Testaments, they didn't win any popularity contests. They spoke truth that ran against the grain. Most of them had people trying to kill them their entire lives! That sounds like Jesus to me! I really believe we must travel the journey of being freed up from the opinions of what people think of us and live to please an Audience of One. When I truly come to the place where I can care only about hat Jesus thinks of me, that's actually a freeing place to live. If I'm successful in His eyes, isn't that all that matters?
How has the definition of success in ministry changed over the years, and what should be our measuring stick for success? I actually believe the pendulum has begun to swing back in a healthy direction. Twenty years ago, one of the first questions asked among two pastors in a conversation, was: "What are you running now?" In other words, "Is your church bigger than mine?" These days, I don't hear that conversation as much among my peers. I believe that's a good thing. I'm not saying church growth is not a measurement we need. It just simply cannot be the only measurement. I really believe that the ultimate measurement of success has more to do with our faithfulness, than our ministry fruitfulness. If you think about it, Jesus' call wasn't primarily about us bearing fruit. He told us to stay connected to Him, and He would bear the fruit through us. Too many of us as pastors have gotten those two things backward. You have several contributions in the book by leading pastors from around the country. How have they influenced your ministry both in your personal relationship with them and by watching them from afar? I'm amazed at the list of contributors and the contributions other pastors have made to this book: Friends like JD Greear, Mark Batterson, Tim Stevens, and Greg Surratt made this a much better book. I have learned something from all of these men. Their insights are similar, but unique to the subject matter I cover, and I wanted other pastors to hear their insights on the same subjects. These pastors are all so different and bring insights that would never have been shared otherwise. However, it takes a secure leader to learn from someone else, especially someone who's different or has different views. I always take the posture that I can learn something from anyone! Too many pastors compare, condemn, or copy other pastors who aren't just like them, because of their own insecurity. I talk about these three C's of unhealthy measurement in the book. Why do pastors fall into the trap of the 3 C's of Unhealthy Measurement (comparing, copying, and condemning) and how can they avoid them? Too many of us are insecure in our own skin. We're in some silent competition in our own minds with every other church or pastor. We feel insignificant or even unloved when God seems to bless another church more than the one we serve, rather than celebrating what is happening for the Kingdom. All of this breeds the discontentment and discouragement so many pastors feel today. Jesus said: "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." So what's our problem? As pastors we place yokes on ourselves and even other pastors that Jesus never put on us. That's why we're so weighed down. As pastors, we must come back daily to our unique callings and giftings. Most pastors will never be mega-church pastors...because they were never meant to be! I talk in the book about how we can we can take off the yoke that we're trying to put on, or someone else is trying to put on us, and live and work with Jesus' call alone on our lives. The relationship between a pastor and his wife is critical. What steps can pastors take to strengthen that relationship, both for the health of their marriage and the health of the church? What gets on the calendar gets done. What gets in the budget gets done. In the first two years of our church plant, my wife, Tricia, and I didn't take one day. We didn't have the "time" or the "money" to do so. I've since come to realize all of that rhetoric is a cop-out. The biggest lie from Hell I ever believed since planting the church, is that "when things slow down" I'll get my relationships back on track. Ministry never slows down. I must prioritize and even systemize space to cultivate not only my relationship with Jesus, but my relationships with others. Pastors, in general don't do relationships all that well. That has become increasingly important for me over the last decade. I have also learned that if I want my spouse to partner with me in ministry, I must partner with her at home. The street goes both ways. When I'm involved in her world, she wants to be more involved in mine. It hasn't always been this way, but today, Tricia and I are partners in every way. In the book, I spend a great deal of time talking about how we've done it. Why is "love" the most forgotten metric in a church? First of all, too many of us as pastors have measured our ministries by what we are against. We take these hard stances against this signaled out sin or that perceived sin. However, as I read the Gospels-- and especially Revelation-- I hear Jesus saying: "The biggest sin you can commit is to neglect love! Secondly, too many of us measure success by our expositional or creative or leadership genius, when Paul says if we all of that, and have not love, we have nothing. Zip. I truly believe pastors need to lead the church back to the way of love. I truly believe God's Word can be summed up in one word: Love. Jesus said if we get that right, everything else will take care of itself. Why do we have to complicate it? How have your ministry team values, you call it "The Code," contributed to the success of Mountain Lake Church? I've frankly never run across a church with a non-biblical mission statement. I have run across a lot of churches with unhealthy cultures. I believe that a healthy culture is the vehicle in which a biblical vision travels. "The code" at Mountain Lake protects a healthy staff and leadership culture. We hold ourselves accountable for living out the "one anothers" of the New Testament. The reason our church is unified is not because we never have conflict. Our church is unified today because the leaders have held our church accountable to handle conflict God's way and speak the truth in love. How should pastors deal with criticism of their ministry or their church? First of all, too many pastors equate a lack of criticism with success. If everyone's happy, then we must be doing our jobs right. However, as I look at prophets of both the Old and New Testaments, they didn't win any popularity contests. They spoke truth that ran against the grain. Most of them had people trying to kill them their entire lives! That sounds like Jesus to me! I really believe we must travel the journey of being freed up from the opinions of what people think of us and live to please an Audience of One. When I truly come to the place where I can care only about hat Jesus thinks of me, that's actually a freeing place to live. If I'm successful in His eyes, isn't that all that matters?
Recent Articles
Your Church Needs to Reach the Most Receptive People
Pastor, you’re surrounded by dirt.To be more precise, you’re surrounded by soil—all kinds of soil. In your community, you have people who are ready to respond to the gospel and people who aren’t. Your job is to identify the good soil and plant your seed there.Jesus clearly taught this notion of spiritual receptivity in the Parable of the Sower and the Soils (Matthew 13:3-23). Like different kinds of soil respond differently to seeds being planted, people respond differently to the Good News. Everyone is not equally ready to receive Christ. Some people are very open to hearing the gospel, while others are closed. In the Parable of the Sower and the Soils, Jesus explained that there are hard hearts, shallow hearts, distracted hearts, and receptive hearts. If you want your ministry to maximize its evangelism effectiveness, you need to focus your energy on the right soil. That’s the soil that will produce a hundredfold harvest. Take a cue from those who work with actual dirt. No farmer in his right mind would waste seed—a precious commodity—on infertile ground that won’t produce a crop. In the same way, careless, unplanned broadcasting of the gospel is poor stewardship. The message of Christ is too important to waste time, money, and energy on nonproductive methods and soil. We need to be strategic in reaching the world. We should focus our efforts where they will make the greatest difference.If you look closely, you’ll see that even within your church’s target group, there are various pockets of receptivity. Spiritual receptivity comes and goes in people’s lives like an ocean tide. People are more open to spiritual truth at certain times than at others. Many factors determine spiritual receptivity. God uses a variety of tools to soften hearts and prepare people to be saved.So, who are the most receptive people? I believe there are two broad categories: people in transition and people under tension. That’s because God uses both change and pain to get people’s attention and make them receptive to the gospel.People in transition: Any time people experience major change, whether positive or negative, they develop a hunger for spiritual stability. This has occurred in America during the last few decades. The massive changes in our world have left us frightened and unsettled and have produced an enormous interest in spiritual matters. Writer Alvin Toffler said that people look for “islands of stability” when change becomes overwhelming. This is a wave the church needs to ride.People are also more receptive to the gospel when they face changes like a new marriage, a new baby, a new home, a new job, or a new school. That’s why churches can generally grow faster in newer communities where new residents are continually moving in than they do in stable, older communities where the same people have lived for decades.People under tension: God uses all kinds of emotional pain to get people’s attention—like the pain of divorce, death of a loved one, unemployment, financial problems, marriage and family difficulties, loneliness, resentment, guilt, and other stresses. When people are fearful or anxious, they often look for something greater than themselves to ease the pain and fill the void they feel. Based on my many years of pastoring, I offer the following list of what I believe were the 10 most receptive groups of people that we reached out to over the years at Saddleback:Second-time visitors to your church (unbelievers who come, regardless of the reason)Close friends and relatives of new convertsPeople going through a divorceThose who feel their need for a recovery program (any type: alcohol, drugs, sexual addiction, etc.)First-time parentsTerminal illness of self or family memberCouples with major marriage problemsParents having difficulty with their childrenRecently unemployed/major financial problemNew residents in the communityA great benefit of focusing on receptive people is that you don’t have to pressure them to receive Christ. I used to tell my staff: “If the fruit is ripe, you don’t have to yank it!”Your church might make a goal of developing a specific program or outreach to each of the most receptive people groups in your community. Of course, if you begin to do this, someone will likely say, “Pastor, I think that before we try to reach all these new people, we should try to reactivate all the old members that have stopped coming.” This is a guaranteed strategy for church decline! It doesn’t work. It usually takes about five times more energy to reactivate a disgruntled or carnal member than it does to win a receptive unbeliever. I believe God has called pastors to catch fish and feed sheep—not to corral goats! The truth is that some of your inactive members probably need to join somewhere else for a number of reasons. Growing churches focus on reaching receptive people. Non-growing churches focus on re-enlisting inactive people.Once you know who your target is, who you are most likely to reach, and who are the most receptive people in your target group, then you’re ready to establish an evangelism strategy for your church. So my suggestion to you is this: Start checking the soil.This article is adapted fromThe Purpose Driven Churchby Rick Warren.
Be Ready to Ride the Waves God Brings
Surfing is a big deal in Southern California. Many of the movies and television shows that have popularized the sport took place in our part of the country. In fact, many of our schools offer physical education courses in surfing.You can learn just about everything in surfing classes, including how to choose the right equipment, how to use it well, how to recognize a “surfable” wave, and how to catch and ride a wave for as long as possible. But you’ll never find a course that covers how to build a wave.That’s because you can’t build your own wave. Surfing is all about catching the waves that God gives you. No waves? No surfing that day. But if there’s a good wave rolling in, surfers won’t miss out, even if it means paddling out in rough weather. It’s a small price to pay to ride a good wave.The same is true for the growth of your church. Only God makes the church grow. Much of the books and training related to church growth fall into the category of “how to build a wave.” They’re all about how to use gimmicks, programs, and marketing to mimic the Spirit’s work. But that’s not our job as church leaders. Just like the surfer, our job is to recognize the waves God makes and ride them. How can we do that?1. Respond to God’s timing. Don’t bother trying to create waves. Stay on the lookout for the waves God sends your way—and ride those. That often means learning to discern when it’s time to move fast and when it’s time to move slow. Some leadership moments call for immediate action, while others require patience and endurance. God’s timing is perfect. Learning when to move fast and when to wait is essential for effective ministry.2. Focus on balance. Surfers need a well-attuned sense of balance, and so do church leaders. Balancing the biblical purposes of the church—worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and evangelism —is critical for healthy church growth. Balanced, purpose driven churches grow. Unbalanced churches eventually stagnate.3. Be prepared to keep going even when you wipe out. Even the best surfers wipe out, but they don’t give up. They get back on their boards and try again. Church leaders must do the same. Failure is never fatal in ministry. God often uses our greatest failures to grow our character and deepen our dependence on him.4. Stay flexible. No wave is the same. Just as surfers need to make adjustments to ride the waves God gives them, pastors must stay flexible to be ready for the waves God sends their way. You’ll likely change methods frequently in ministry, yet the message — the gospel of Jesus Christ—never changes. Leaders must be flexible in how they reach people without compromising the gospel. 5. Cultivate expectancy. Surfers are constantly looking for the next big wave. Church leaders should also learn to foster a spirit of expectancy, believing God is always at work and preparing to respond when he moves. That’s what faith is—expecting God to act. God works in our ministries according to our faith. Encourage your church to pray boldly and prepare practically for God to bring new opportunities for growth and ministry. It’s easy to look around at our world and grow negative, but we’re living in exciting times. God’s Spirit is moving mightily in waves around the world.That’s why I pray something like this each day:“Father, I know you’re going to do some incredible things in your world today. Please give me the privilege of getting in on some of what you’re doing.”That’s a prayer God loves to answer.
Embracing Creative Outreach in Your Ministry
In 1992, Saddleback Church became one of the first churches on the internet. Back in those days, the internet was an uncharted frontier: no web browsers, no search engines, just a few tech-savvy pioneers exploring a digital wilderness. Yet, when we saw the internet as an opportunity to reach people in a new way, we jumped in with both feet, using FTP, Gopher, and Mosaic to share the gospel. Creative outreach is one of 10 values that we built Saddleback Church on, and that creative spirit has never left the church. I believe every church should embrace creativity to reach new people with the gospel. Any church can learn to do this if they live out these five principles. Adaptability is key to reaching the unchurched. In a famous passage in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Paul writes about how he adapts to the people he is trying to reach. He never changes the gospel, but he is always looking for fresh ways to put the gospel in a context people understand. He writes in verse 22, “I have become all things to all people. I have done this so that in all possible ways I might save some” (NIRV).That’s what creative outreach is all about—using any means necessary to tell people about Jesus. We should get creative in finding common ground with our neighbors so we can share the gospel with them. Creativity reflects God’s image in us. Each of us was created to create. We are made in God’s image (Genesis 1:27). Jesus created everything seen and unseen in the universe (Colossians 1:16)—and we are designed to be creative too.Too often, we get the idea that only certain people are creative, but that’s not true. Every one of us has the potential to be creative. If we’re going to be faithful in reaching our neighbors for Jesus, we need to tap into the creativity of every one of our congregants. Learn to fail fast, fail often, and fail cheap. I used to tell my staff all the time that if they’re not failing, they’re not trying anything new. Doing the same thing over and over again isn’t being creative, and it’s rarely going to reach people.Think of it like this: You’re successfully discovering what doesn’t work when you “fail” in your outreach. It’s not a failure; it’s an experiment. You’ll never learn what is successful in evangelism if you don’t experiment, even if that leads to apparent failures. God-sized dreams fuel creative outreach. God’s vision for your church is far greater than anything you can imagine on your own. As Colossians 1:16 reminds us, Jesus is the Creator of all things, and his creativity is boundless. When you align your church’s outreach with his grand design, you tap into his limitless imagination.Faith-fueled imagination allows you to dream big—beyond your current resources or understanding. Embracing God-sized dreams for your church will lead to reaching new people with the Good News of who Jesus is and what he has done for us.Change is necessary for growth. When I was pastor at Saddleback, we constantly made changes to reach new people with the good news. New days required new methods so we changed programs, ministries, and styles.Jesus reminds us in Mark 2:22, “No one puts new wine into old wineskins” (NLT). You have to be willing to change to grow—that’s true for you as a leader and for your church. Everyone needs Jesus. Each of our neighbors, whom Jesus dearly loves, has a unique background and a unique story. Because of that, we need to be creative in how we tell the people in our community about him, so that, as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 9, “in all possible ways” we might reach them. Look around your community. Chances are, you’ll find what we found: Your neighbors desperately need Jesus. To reach them effectively, you’ll need to be both bold and creative in your approach. Think outside the box, and don’t be afraid to try new methods.
Why Speaking the Language of Your Community Matters
What your church says matters. So does how you say it.The church’s number one job is to share the good news about Jesus with people who have never heard it—in every way and every language. God wants our churches to be all-nations congregations.God made this a top priority for the church since day one. On the church’s first day of existence, the Holy Spirit miraculously empowered the church to speak in the language of the people they were engaging. The Bible tells us people had come to Jerusalem from every nation of the world to celebrate the Day of Pentecost. Of course, it’s no accident that God started the church on a day the entire world gathered in Jerusalem.Yet, despite all the different ethnicities present, we learn that language didn’t hold back the gospel. Luke tells us of the apostles, “All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them” (Luke 2:4 NIV).Imagine what that day was like. Everybody heard the apostles in their own language. Whether they were from Europe, Asia, or Africa, they heard the gospel in their native tongue. The miracle during Pentecost reversed the consequences of the Tower of Babel from Genesis 11.The events in Acts 2 teach us a valuable lesson about the kinds of churches God blesses. The church today doesn’t need the miraculous gift of languages because we already speak every language in the world. But we still need to be intentional about communicating in ways that resonate with the people we are trying to reach. Speaking the language of your community isn’t just about whether they speak English, Spanish, or some other tongue. Every person in our congregations speaks multiple languages. Most of the time, they don’t even realize it, though. For example, you have mothers of preschoolers who can talk to other moms in ways the rest of us can’t. Others are good at electronics, computers, and all things digital. They speak tech and can talk to people others can’t. Others speak baseball, basketball, hip hop, or crafts. God intends for them to use those languages for his glory, to reach people only they can reach. In today’s world, that’s a big part of how we replicate the miracle of Pentecost. We learn and speak the language of community so our neighbors can understand the gospel clearly. But again, they likely won’t realize they speak these other languages. Our job as leaders is to help our congregation realize the opportunities they have to share the good news with people only they can reach.You can do this is many, many ways. For example, a few years ago at Saddleback, we held an Orange County Social Media Summit. It wasn’t designed for our congregants or even to help other churches. In fact, most of the people who were there didn’t go to church at all. We put it together to help our people build relationships with those who spoke the language of social media. These were people who regularly used words and phrases like “organic reach,” “algorithms,” “hashtags,” “viral,” and “trending.” I could share the gospel with those people, but I can’t make it as clear as someone who is already immersed in their world. So in that event, we had people in our church building bridges of love through social media during that event. They were able to share the gospel with people who may not have heard it any other way.Pastor, your church can do this, too. Look for ways to give people opportunities to build bridges in your community. Maybe you start a moms’ group, a recreational softball team, or a gaming club. Encourage people to explore all the languages they can speak and how they use those languages to share the gospel. It’s important to note that the early church didn’t stop doing this after Acts 2. Paul used the language of his mission field to communicate the gospel regularly throughout the book of Acts. Famously, in Acts 17, he used the language and cultural references of Greek philosophers to share the gospel at the Areopagus in Athens.Churches that God blesses recognize the languages of the people in their community and will do anything to make sure they can communicate the gospel in those languages. Your congregants don’t need to be great theologians to do this. They don’t need to memorize the entire Bible. They need to build a bridge of love based on the languages they share.
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