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Becoming a Purpose Driven Church (An Interview with Rick Warren, Part 2)
Editor's Note: This is the second part of an interview. Click here to read part 1.
Walker: It took you a long time to get a building erected at Saddleback and it’s an unusual one at that. Tell us about your building philosophy. Warren: First, buildings are to be instruments, not monuments. We would never build a building we couldn’t tear down – if we needed to in order to reach more people – because people are the priority not buildings. Winston Churchill once said, “We shape our buildings and then they shape us.” Most churches build too soon and too small. Then a permanently small building shapes a permanently small future. That’s why we postponed our building as long as we could. That meant, in order to keep growing, we used 79 different buildings in 13 years. We often joked, “We’re the church that, if you can figure out where we are this week, you get to come.” Walker: You also have a strong opinion that churches should not try to mix traditional with contemporary worship styles. Warren: Absolutely. If you try to please everybody you will end up reaching nobody. You have to figure out who your evangelistic target is and focus on it. I do not recommend that established churches try to radically change the style of their existing worship services. Instead, I suggest that they start a second, alternative service or, better yet, start a new mission designed to reach people not being reached by the traditional style. If they try to change the existing service too much they’ll lose some people who are already there. You don’t necessarily have to stop what you’re already doing. It’s like when you’re fishing. Instead of just using one line, throw another hook into the water. You might have four or five different worship styles, if that’s what’s needed to reach different generations that live in your community. I'm not against any traditional method that is still reaching people for Christ – I'm just a proponent of adding new ways and services to reach those who will never be reached by the way we’ve traditionally done it. Walker: Most evangelical churches would say they’re trying to reach everyone. Why do you think that won’t work? Warren: The church that claims to reach everyone is only fooling themselves. No style of church can possibly reach everyone. Take a close look and you’ll find that every church has a “culture.” This culture is determined by the predominant kind of people who make up the congregation. Whoever your church has right now is who you’re likely to attract more of – whether you like that fact or not. What is the likelihood of a church full of retirees reaching teenagers? What is the likelihood of a church full of urban professionals reaching farmers? What is the likelihood of a church full of military personnel reaching peace activists? Highly unlikely. That’s why we must start all kinds of services and churches. Jesus modeled evangelistic targeting in the Bible. He said, “I came for the house of Israel,” and when he sent out the twelve and the seventy, he gave them a specific target. Was this to be exclusive? No, to be effective. Likewise, Paul says, “I am the apostle to the Gentiles and Peter is the apostle to the Jews.” Why do you think we have four Gospels? Because they were written to communicate the Good News to different targets. Matthew wrote for Jews and Mark wrote for Gentiles. Walker: Some critics say that to be “seeker sensitive” requires the Gospel to be watered down. Warren: “Seeker sensitive” doesn’t mean you compromise the message. It means you take into consideration people’s culture in order to communicate that message. Making a service “comfortable” for the unchurched doesn’t mean changing your theology; it means changing the environment of the service – such as changing the way you greet visitors, the style of music that you use, the translation you preach from, and the kind of announcements you make in the service. The message is not always comfortable. In fact, sometimes God’s truth is very uncomfortable. Still we must teach, “the whole counsel of God.” Being seeker sensitive does not limit what you say but it will affect how you say it. Imagine a missionary saying to a tribe, “I have the best news in the world, but to hear it, you must first learn my language, start wearing my kind of clothes, sing my songs, and come to my building at a time convenient for me.” We’d call that a strategy for failure. But we do it in America all the time. We say, “You have to hear the Good News in our language and through our tunes.” Walker: You started with a clean slate at Saddleback, but what if a pastor in a traditional church wants to make changes. Where would you suggest he start? Warren: What you should do is change the easiest thing first and the things that make the greatest difference. Don’t worry initially about the issues that cause the greatest disagreement. The easiest thing to change is the preaching. Any pastor in any church could update his preaching style for the 21st century and see a dramatic improvement. In many churches, we’re still using an oratory style that is pre-television. Another simple improvement is to change the way your church welcomes visitors. We don’t realize that the traditional way of welcoming newcomers actually makes them more uncomfortable. Studies show that the three greatest fears that people have are, one, the fear of speaking in front of others, two, the fear of being singled out, three, the fear of being different. Yet we welcome visitors by saying, “Stand up, tell us who you are, and put on a sticker that says you’re different." Welcome to your three greatest fears. There are a lot of simple, practical changes that any traditional church can make in order to be more sensitive to the needs and the fears of their unchurched visitors. Walker: John Maxwell has said something like, “In the New Testament, Jesus was so human that people had trouble believing that he was divine. Yet, there are a lot of pastors who are so formal people have trouble believing that they’re human.” You also champion informality. Tell us about that. Warren: I think one of the biggest barriers to effective ministry is that we take ourselves too seriously and don’t take God seriously enough. The most important confession in the New Testament is Peter’s confession when he says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” but the second and most important confession is Paul’s confession when he says in Acts 17, “We are but men.” You have to decide in life whether you want to influence people or impress them. You can impress people from a distance but you can only influence them up close. We desperately need authentic leaders today, who are real and vulnerable. Our greatest life messages actually come out of our weaknesses, not our strengths. I don’t think it’s by accident that the words, “humor” and “humility” come from the same root word. Self-deprecating humor is the quickest way to turn a hostile audience into a friendly one. It endears people to you. Anyway, if you learn to laugh at yourself, you’ll always have plenty of material. People like being around someone who isn’t trying to put on airs or act pompous. I’ve got three doctorates, but I never let anybody call me “doctor.” In fact, my people just call me “Rick.” And I sign all letters to visitors with just “Rick,” or “Pastor Rick.” Why? Because I want them to feel they can relate to me on a first name basis. None of my degrees are hanging on the wall. Instead, I’ve got pictures of my kids up. That's what people relate to – “Oh, you’re normal.” Walker: Does that contribute to an openness with the congregation where people are willing to share their struggles? Warren: One unique part of our service every Sunday is a testimony of someone working through a real life problem with Jesus’ help. Some churches are now using drama to illustrate the message but I thought, “Why write a fake story, a drama, when I’ve got a real live story sitting out there in the congregation?” So, every week, in the middle of my message, I have a person or couple share a five-minute testimony. These are never “Thank God I’ve never sinned” stories, but gut level stories about overcoming adultery, mental illness, alcoholism, promiscuity, abortion, abuse, and relatives dying of AIDS. We’ve covered every issue you could think of. These testimonies have brought about two wonderful results. First, they have created a climate of authenticity and openness in our fellowship. People realize it’s okay to have problems now. You don’t have to talk about them only in past tense. Second, it has mobilized hundreds of people for lay ministry. As it says in 2 Corinthians, “God allows us to go through these problems and then comforts us so that we can have a ministry of helping others.” Walker: You’re known as a visionary. What do you see as the number one challenge facing churches over the next few years? Warren: The greatest challenge churches will face over the next five years is developing and adapting our ministry methods to the massive needs of the 21st century. We can’t just keep on “doing it the way we’ve always done it.” The world has changed – permanently – and we are never going back to the 1950s. We must start thousands of new churches and services. It will take new churches to reach a new generation. But more than that, we must develop a clear practical strategy that helps all our existing churches through what I call the four types of renewal: personal renewal, corporate renewal, mission renewal, and structural renewal. If we don’t, thousands of churches are going to be closing and boarding up for good. That’s sad, because it doesn’t have to happen. All it takes is leadership with the vision and courage to make tough decisions. I have never seen pastors more open to learning and growing. We’ve had thousands of pastors and church leaders attend the Purpose Driven Church seminars. I'm a big fan of pastors, especially bi-vocational ones who support themselves while serving a church. I think pastors are the most underrated change agents in America. Anything we can do to strengthen their families, encourage them personally, and equip them with new skills necessary for ministry in the new century will be the wisest use of our resources we can possibly make.
Walker: It took you a long time to get a building erected at Saddleback and it’s an unusual one at that. Tell us about your building philosophy. Warren: First, buildings are to be instruments, not monuments. We would never build a building we couldn’t tear down – if we needed to in order to reach more people – because people are the priority not buildings. Winston Churchill once said, “We shape our buildings and then they shape us.” Most churches build too soon and too small. Then a permanently small building shapes a permanently small future. That’s why we postponed our building as long as we could. That meant, in order to keep growing, we used 79 different buildings in 13 years. We often joked, “We’re the church that, if you can figure out where we are this week, you get to come.” Walker: You also have a strong opinion that churches should not try to mix traditional with contemporary worship styles. Warren: Absolutely. If you try to please everybody you will end up reaching nobody. You have to figure out who your evangelistic target is and focus on it. I do not recommend that established churches try to radically change the style of their existing worship services. Instead, I suggest that they start a second, alternative service or, better yet, start a new mission designed to reach people not being reached by the traditional style. If they try to change the existing service too much they’ll lose some people who are already there. You don’t necessarily have to stop what you’re already doing. It’s like when you’re fishing. Instead of just using one line, throw another hook into the water. You might have four or five different worship styles, if that’s what’s needed to reach different generations that live in your community. I'm not against any traditional method that is still reaching people for Christ – I'm just a proponent of adding new ways and services to reach those who will never be reached by the way we’ve traditionally done it. Walker: Most evangelical churches would say they’re trying to reach everyone. Why do you think that won’t work? Warren: The church that claims to reach everyone is only fooling themselves. No style of church can possibly reach everyone. Take a close look and you’ll find that every church has a “culture.” This culture is determined by the predominant kind of people who make up the congregation. Whoever your church has right now is who you’re likely to attract more of – whether you like that fact or not. What is the likelihood of a church full of retirees reaching teenagers? What is the likelihood of a church full of urban professionals reaching farmers? What is the likelihood of a church full of military personnel reaching peace activists? Highly unlikely. That’s why we must start all kinds of services and churches. Jesus modeled evangelistic targeting in the Bible. He said, “I came for the house of Israel,” and when he sent out the twelve and the seventy, he gave them a specific target. Was this to be exclusive? No, to be effective. Likewise, Paul says, “I am the apostle to the Gentiles and Peter is the apostle to the Jews.” Why do you think we have four Gospels? Because they were written to communicate the Good News to different targets. Matthew wrote for Jews and Mark wrote for Gentiles. Walker: Some critics say that to be “seeker sensitive” requires the Gospel to be watered down. Warren: “Seeker sensitive” doesn’t mean you compromise the message. It means you take into consideration people’s culture in order to communicate that message. Making a service “comfortable” for the unchurched doesn’t mean changing your theology; it means changing the environment of the service – such as changing the way you greet visitors, the style of music that you use, the translation you preach from, and the kind of announcements you make in the service. The message is not always comfortable. In fact, sometimes God’s truth is very uncomfortable. Still we must teach, “the whole counsel of God.” Being seeker sensitive does not limit what you say but it will affect how you say it. Imagine a missionary saying to a tribe, “I have the best news in the world, but to hear it, you must first learn my language, start wearing my kind of clothes, sing my songs, and come to my building at a time convenient for me.” We’d call that a strategy for failure. But we do it in America all the time. We say, “You have to hear the Good News in our language and through our tunes.” Walker: You started with a clean slate at Saddleback, but what if a pastor in a traditional church wants to make changes. Where would you suggest he start? Warren: What you should do is change the easiest thing first and the things that make the greatest difference. Don’t worry initially about the issues that cause the greatest disagreement. The easiest thing to change is the preaching. Any pastor in any church could update his preaching style for the 21st century and see a dramatic improvement. In many churches, we’re still using an oratory style that is pre-television. Another simple improvement is to change the way your church welcomes visitors. We don’t realize that the traditional way of welcoming newcomers actually makes them more uncomfortable. Studies show that the three greatest fears that people have are, one, the fear of speaking in front of others, two, the fear of being singled out, three, the fear of being different. Yet we welcome visitors by saying, “Stand up, tell us who you are, and put on a sticker that says you’re different." Welcome to your three greatest fears. There are a lot of simple, practical changes that any traditional church can make in order to be more sensitive to the needs and the fears of their unchurched visitors. Walker: John Maxwell has said something like, “In the New Testament, Jesus was so human that people had trouble believing that he was divine. Yet, there are a lot of pastors who are so formal people have trouble believing that they’re human.” You also champion informality. Tell us about that. Warren: I think one of the biggest barriers to effective ministry is that we take ourselves too seriously and don’t take God seriously enough. The most important confession in the New Testament is Peter’s confession when he says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” but the second and most important confession is Paul’s confession when he says in Acts 17, “We are but men.” You have to decide in life whether you want to influence people or impress them. You can impress people from a distance but you can only influence them up close. We desperately need authentic leaders today, who are real and vulnerable. Our greatest life messages actually come out of our weaknesses, not our strengths. I don’t think it’s by accident that the words, “humor” and “humility” come from the same root word. Self-deprecating humor is the quickest way to turn a hostile audience into a friendly one. It endears people to you. Anyway, if you learn to laugh at yourself, you’ll always have plenty of material. People like being around someone who isn’t trying to put on airs or act pompous. I’ve got three doctorates, but I never let anybody call me “doctor.” In fact, my people just call me “Rick.” And I sign all letters to visitors with just “Rick,” or “Pastor Rick.” Why? Because I want them to feel they can relate to me on a first name basis. None of my degrees are hanging on the wall. Instead, I’ve got pictures of my kids up. That's what people relate to – “Oh, you’re normal.” Walker: Does that contribute to an openness with the congregation where people are willing to share their struggles? Warren: One unique part of our service every Sunday is a testimony of someone working through a real life problem with Jesus’ help. Some churches are now using drama to illustrate the message but I thought, “Why write a fake story, a drama, when I’ve got a real live story sitting out there in the congregation?” So, every week, in the middle of my message, I have a person or couple share a five-minute testimony. These are never “Thank God I’ve never sinned” stories, but gut level stories about overcoming adultery, mental illness, alcoholism, promiscuity, abortion, abuse, and relatives dying of AIDS. We’ve covered every issue you could think of. These testimonies have brought about two wonderful results. First, they have created a climate of authenticity and openness in our fellowship. People realize it’s okay to have problems now. You don’t have to talk about them only in past tense. Second, it has mobilized hundreds of people for lay ministry. As it says in 2 Corinthians, “God allows us to go through these problems and then comforts us so that we can have a ministry of helping others.” Walker: You’re known as a visionary. What do you see as the number one challenge facing churches over the next few years? Warren: The greatest challenge churches will face over the next five years is developing and adapting our ministry methods to the massive needs of the 21st century. We can’t just keep on “doing it the way we’ve always done it.” The world has changed – permanently – and we are never going back to the 1950s. We must start thousands of new churches and services. It will take new churches to reach a new generation. But more than that, we must develop a clear practical strategy that helps all our existing churches through what I call the four types of renewal: personal renewal, corporate renewal, mission renewal, and structural renewal. If we don’t, thousands of churches are going to be closing and boarding up for good. That’s sad, because it doesn’t have to happen. All it takes is leadership with the vision and courage to make tough decisions. I have never seen pastors more open to learning and growing. We’ve had thousands of pastors and church leaders attend the Purpose Driven Church seminars. I'm a big fan of pastors, especially bi-vocational ones who support themselves while serving a church. I think pastors are the most underrated change agents in America. Anything we can do to strengthen their families, encourage them personally, and equip them with new skills necessary for ministry in the new century will be the wisest use of our resources we can possibly make.
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The Pastor’s Guide to Difficult Personalities
By Rick WarrenMinistry would be easy if it weren’t for the people!But as every pastor knows, one of the greatest challenges in ministry is dealing with difficult people. They come in all shapes and sizes, but they have one thing in common: They drain your energy, distract your focus, and derail your momentum.Jesus had to deal with difficult people throughout his ministry. And if you’re going to follow his example, you need to learn how to deal with them too.Here are four practical strategies Jesus modeled for handling difficult people.1. Realize You Can’t Please Everyone"By myself I can do nothing. . . . I seek not to please myself but him who sent me" (John 5:30 NIV).Even God doesn’t please everyone. One person prays for rain, another for sunshine. You’re not God—and you’re not called to be a people-pleaser. Your job is to please the Lord.If you let other people’s demands drive your decisions, you’ll burn out fast. Instead, stay focused on God’s calling for your life and ministry.2. Refuse to Play Their Game"But Jesus knew their evil motives. 'You hypocrites!' he said. 'Why are you trying to trap me?'" (Matthew 22:18 NLT).Difficult people often try to manipulate you with guilt, fear, or anger. But Jesus never fell for their traps. He responded with wisdom, truth, and clarity.You don’t have to meet every expectation. You can say no. And when correction is needed, speak the truth in love. Some people aren’t interested in solutions—they just want to argue. Don’t get caught in their game.3. Don’t Retaliate"You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury. . . . But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also" (Matthew 5:38-39 NLT).Retaliation gives up control. When you strike back, you’re no longer responding—you’re reacting. And that means you’re letting someone else set the tone for your life.Instead, take the high road. Respond with humility, patience, and grace. That doesn’t mean you never set boundaries—it means you do it with the right spirit.4. Pray for Them"But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!" (Matthew 5:44 NLT).Prayer is the game-changer. You can’t change a troublemaker by ignoring them, retaliating, or giving in. But when you team up love and prayer, you create space for God to work a miracle. That’s what Jesus did—and it’s what he calls you to do too.Difficult People Come in Many FormsYou’ve likely encountered these personalities in your church:The Sherman Tank – Runs over anyone who disagreesThe Megaphone – Dominates every conversationThe Bubble Buster – Deflates every new ideaThe Volcano – Explodes with angerThe Crybaby – Constantly complains and poutsThe Nitpicker – Obsesses over minor flawsThe Space Cadet – Lives in a different realityYou may not be able to avoid these personalities, but you can learn to respond with wisdom, grace, and strength.Make this your goal: "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone" (Romans 12:18 NIV).You won’t always get it right. But as you grow in these Christ-like responses, you’ll free up energy for what really matters: shepherding the flock God has entrusted to you.
Five Ways to Lead Your Church Toward Unity
By Rick WarrenPastor, few things weigh heavier on your heart than seeing conflict among your people. Nothing breaks a shepherd's heart like watching the sheep squabble. Unity isn't just a nice bonus for your church; it's essential. In fact, Jesus taught that your church's witness depends on it. God can work through many weaknesses in your church, but he won't work through disunity.As you shepherd your people toward unity, here are five principles to guide you:1. Maintain an attitude of acceptance.Don’t major in minors. Not every issue requires total agreement. Some disagreements are simply over disputable matters. Paul addresses this in Romans 14:1-23, using the example of disagreement over dietary guidelines to remind believers not to let minor differences divide them. Instead, maintain an attitude of acceptance.Isn't it a blessing that God made us different? He loves variety! When conflict arises, your first task is to discern whether it's over essentials or non-essentials. If it's essential, address it biblically. But if it's not, lead your people to accept one another's differences.2. Focus on your common mission.Nothing unites a church more than a shared purpose. That’s why at Saddleback we always insisted that every new member go through our membership class. There, we clearly lay out the church’s purpose and direction.Your church isn’t the only church in town, and that’s okay. Other Bible-believing churches may do things differently. Make sure people know what your church is about before they join. Clarity upfront can prevent division later.3. Control your tongue.Pastor, when gossip shows up, you need to shut it down immediately—and train your leaders to do the same. Gossip is sin. When you listen to it, you become complicit. Ephesians 4:29 says, “Don’t say anything that would hurt ⸤another person⸥. Instead, speak only what is good so that you can give help wherever it is needed. That way, what you say will help those who hear you” (GW).What is gossip? It's when you share a problem or criticism with someone who is neither part of the problem nor part of the solution. If they're not involved, leave it alone. Preach on this often and remind your leadership regularly. It's that important.4. Teach your church to support church leadership.Hebrews 13:17 says, “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you” (NIV).That verse should humble every pastor. One day, you will stand before God and give an account of how you shepherded his people. That reality drives us to our knees, praying for wisdom and guidance.With that accountability comes authority. Without authority, you can't be held responsible. God gives pastors authority to lead his church. Teaching your church the biblical basis for leadership authority isn’t about propping yourself up—it’s about protecting the unity that God cherishes.5. Practice God's method of conflict resolution.Jesus outlines the process for handling conflict in Matthew 18: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along. . . . If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15-17 NIV).When someone brings you a complaint about another person, your first question should be: Have you talked to them directly? That’s where biblical conflict resolution begins.If they refuse to listen, involve one or two others. If they still won't listen, bring it before the church. And if there's still no repentance, treat them as you would an unbeliever—with love, but with clear boundaries about church membership.Jesus said that unity is a powerful witness to the world. It's not natural for people from different backgrounds to come together as one family. But when churches work together to fulfill God's mission, people notice. Unity attracts.My prayer is that your church will experience the kind of unity that honors God and draws people to the cross.
Walking a Different Path—and Why It’s Worth It
“Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.” Genesis 6:9 (NLT)Pastor, if you want to keep fulfilling your calling—and stay faithful in a world that’s resistant to the gospel—you must be willing to walk a different path than the surrounding culture.That’s not always easy, especially on a Monday morning. Maybe Sunday didn’t go the way you hoped. Maybe you’re wondering if anyone was really listening. Maybe you're tired. But your faithfulness, even in weariness, is exactly what God notices.Noah’s generation was in full rebellion against God. Genesis 6:12 says, “God observed all this corruption in the world, for everyone on earth was corrupt” (NLT). That must have felt incredibly isolating for Noah—yet he stayed the course. The Message paraphrase says it like this: “Noah was different. GOD liked what he saw in Noah” (Genesis 6:8).Let that sink in: God liked what he saw in Noah.Would he say the same of you today? Absolutely. When you preach the Word even when people don’t respond, when you pray over your congregation with love, when you lead with integrity even when it's hard—God sees. And he smiles.You don’t have to be flashy. You don’t have to go viral. You don’t even have to feel effective. Keep doing what God calls you to do. That’s what set Noah apart. He walked with God, even when the rest of the world walked away.As our world moves further from God, pastors like you shine all the brighter. Your steady, faithful ministry matters more than you realize.
Before You Say Yes: 3 Questions Every Pastor Should Ask
“If any of you needs wisdom to know what you should do, you should ask God, and he will give it to you. God is generous to everyone and doesn’t find fault with them.”James 1:5 (GW)You’re likely reading this on a Monday. Yesterday, you poured your heart for your congregation—preaching, shepherding, and leading your people. Now, you’re tired. God wants you to get your proper rest. If you’re burning the candle at both ends, you’re not as bright as you think you are. You’re going to burn out!Every week, you’re probably offered more ministry opportunities than you could take on in a month. That counseling appointment, that community invitation, that extra meeting—they’re all good things. But without wisdom, even good opportunities can become spiritual quicksand.When a new opportunity crosses your desk, take these three steps:Ask, “Is it worth it?” Will this serve the kingdom in the way God has wired you to serve? Is it worth the time, energy, and emotional bandwidth it will cost? Every “yes” is a trade—you’re giving away part of your life for it. Is it worth that kind of exchange?Ask, “What will I have to give up?” Saying “yes” to one thing means saying “no” to something else. Maybe your family. Maybe margin for prayer and reflection. Maybe the deep work God’s been calling you to. Make your “what-matters-most” list before you make your to-do list. Let God shape your priorities before your calendar does.Ask, “Should I just say no?” We’re used to running at the speed of crisis, but constant urgency isn't godly—it’s exhausting. Learning to say “no” is an act of faith. It’s trusting that God can lead your church better than you can. It’s believing your value isn’t in how much you do, but in who you are in Christ. If something isn’t on your “what-matters-most” list, it may be best just to say no.Remember, you don’t need to figure this all out on your own. James 1:5 promises that when we ask for wisdom, God gives it—generously and without shaming us for needing it.So take a breath, pastor. Take your list of opportunities to the Lord. Ask him for wisdom. Then choose what matters most—and rest knowing that obedience is more important than busyness.
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