Pastors.com
FellowshipPreaching/TeachingLeadershipCelebrate RecoveryDiscipleshipSmall GroupsEvangelismWorshipMinistry
The Most Important Interview I've Ever Done
The Purpose Driven Life Book
The Purpose Driven Life Book
The Daniel Plan Study Guide with Streaming Video
The Daniel Plan Study Guide with Streaming Video
God's Power to Change Your Life
God's Power to Change Your Life
After teaching How to Get Through What You're Going Through" for the past eight weeks, Kay and I felt it was time to grant the first media interview since Matthew’s death. We chose CNN’s Piers Morgan Live because it offered a full-hour for us to share our thoughts, rather than just short sound bites. What happened in the taping surprised us all. Several members of the tech/camera crew were in tears, hugged us, and told us that their lives had been profoundly impacted by the experience. Piers Morgan was unusually sensitive to the moment, allowing us all the time we needed without interruption. At lunch, Piers shared that it was the most moving interview he’s ever done. In kindness, the CNN team came to us, taping the interview at our Acts of Mercy family foundation office. In our conversation, we discussed:
  • What it was like to parent a child who battled mental illness all his life.
  • What it has been like to grieve our son’s suicide as public figures.
  • Mental illness, depression, guns, grief, and God.
  • What needs to change in our culture, including removing the stigma from mental illness.
  • How to support the mentally ill and the families who care for them.
  • How our faith has been tested and has grown stronger.
  • How we get our sins forgiven, purpose for living, and home in heaven through Jesus.
  • The overwhelming love we’ve received from our church family and others.
  • How God gives us HOPE in our darkest days.
The interview was raw and real. The CNN crew and our staff watched almost breathlessly. For an entire hour, you could’ve heard a pin drop, everyone was so riveted by what God was doing through the conversation. I wanted to take an opportunity to pass along some of the most significant things we were privileged to say, and I would welcome your feedback on the interview.

The Six Stages of Grief

Rick:
Well, you know, Elisabeth Kubler-Ross did this thing, this thing called the four stages of death and dying and I actually think there are six. And we've been watching ourselves go through this back and forth now for several months. I think the first stage is shock. And for us, shock still happens. For at least the first month, I kept waiting for Matthew to come in the door... I just couldn't believe that it happened. It was so sudden. And then you move from shock to sorrow, sadness, and this profound sadness that comes into your life. Then you move to what I call struggle and that's all the "why" questions. Why now? Why this? Why me? Why Matthew? Then you move to a stage I call surrender. I wrote in my journal one day, I later tweeted it, and said, "I'd rather have all my questions unanswered and walk with God than not walk with God and have all my questions answered." But there is a struggle. And finally, I just have to surrender, so I'm not going to know. I'm not going to know all these answers. And then you move to what I call sanctification which is the change that takes place in you. And then service. And service means I think God wants us to use our hurt. And one of the reasons we decided to do this interview with you is maybe we could help some other people.

On Losing Matthew

Kay: 
I've said almost from the first moment that we learned that, "We're devastated but we're not destroyed." And when people ask that question of, how are you, there's no good answer. And so, I finally just settled on, "I'm terrible but I'm OK." In other words, we're going to survive and someday, we'll thrive again. It's the worst thing that could ever happen.

Grief is Good

Rick:
I have cried every single day since Matthew died, but that's actually a good thing. Grief is a good thing. It's the way we get to the transitions of life. And I find, if I don't cry, then I stuff it. When I swallow my emotions, my stomach keeps score. If I don't talk it out to my wife, to God, to friends, then I'm going to take it out on my body. And so, as guys, men, we don't do grief very well. It's not an easy thing for us because we don't like the negative emotion. But actually, grief is a good thing. Grief is the way we get to the transitions of life and that's been helpful to me.

Choosing Joy

Rick:
We were sobbing. We were just sobbing. The day that I had feared might happen one day, since he'd been born, and the day that I prayed would never happen, happened. And I remember, as we stood in the driveway, just embracing each other, and sobbing. And Kay was wearing a necklace -- you're wearing it today -- that had the words of a book she wrote a year ago called Choose Joy. And she held it up and it said, "Choose Joy." And in my mind I thought, "Are you kidding? How can I choose joy in this worst circumstance of my life?" But we -- even in that moment, we were trying to say, "We're not in control but we do have a greater hope and we do have a source of joy that isn't based on our circumstances." And it was a holy moment.

Mental Illness

Rick:
Piers, any other organ in my body can get broken and there's no shame, no stigma to it. My liver stops working, my heart stops working, my lungs stop working. Well, I'll just say, "Hey, I got diabetes. My pancreas or my adrenaline glands, or whatever," but if my brain is broken, I'm supposed to feel bad about it. I'm supposed to feel shame. And so, a lot of people who should get help don't.
Piers:
It's hard to imagine. All that I've researched on this, with you and your family and Matthew, it's hard to imagine anyone who suffers from this kind of illness, who's had more love and support from their family, from a wide circle of friends, who's had more treatment from the so called experts, more institutionalized moments, everything you could imagine, and yet still it wasn't enough to save him.
Kay:
Well, if you look at the risk factors of what puts people at risk for suicide, Matthew had almost none of the risk factors. He had a great, as you say, a loving family, he had the access to care, he had friends. He had everything... The main risk factor for him was mental illness and he had that.

The Support of Saddleback Church

Rick:
I was overwhelmed by the love of our people. Kay and I had given 33 years to this church. And I felt like they all gave it back at the moment. It was just a very tender moment for me as a pastor. I have walked through the valley of the shadow of death with thousands of people. I have walked, I've stood at bed sides and seeing lots of people take their last breath. I have been there for those people for 33 years. And they were there for us when we needed them most.

Questioning God's Plan, but Never Questioning God

Rick:
I never questioned my faith in God. I question God's plan. There's a big difference. I know God is a good God. Nothing can shake that from my life. I know God is a loving God. The question is -- it's like my children, my children have never doubted that they -- that I love them but they sometimes doubt my wisdom and they don't think I've made the right decision. Not everything that happens in the world is God's will. Everything that happens in the world God allows, he permits but because it couldn't happen without his permission but we live in a world where there are free choices and if I chose to do wrong, I can't blame God for that. So God isn't to blame for my son's death. My son took his life. It was his choice and if I chose to go out and get drunk and get in a car and I was in an accident, killed somebody, I can't blame God for that.
Kay:
You know as Rick said it's not -- our faith is currently what's got us -- that foundation what's gotten us through and it's solid and strong but I have to tell you that, you know, before -- I have something I want to show you. There's this box that it was given to me a few years and I -- It's got the word -- it's a marble box and it's got the word Hope on it and ... It's my Hope box and I filled it with verses that gave me comfort, that gave me encouragement, verses that just kept my faith really strong before Matthew passed away and everyday I would sit and I would read these verses and that morning after we had been to his house the night before and I was pretty certain that he had taken his life. I got up that morning and I opened my Hope box and I went to these verses one more time and then after that I didn't open it for a month. I couldn't and then I started to think, so where do I go from here? What you'd do when your hope has been crashed and the only way I now how to rebuild it is to go back to my faith and to God's word and this time, I started putting verses in that give me Hope for the future like there's this amazing verse that it's 1 Corinthians 15:43 it says, "Our bodies are buried in brokenness but they will be raised in glory, they are buried in weakness but they will be raised in strength." And so every time when I go to the cemetery, I quote that verse because, you know, what Matthew's body was broken, that gun broke his body and he was buried in brokenness but he's going to be raised in glory. He was buried in weakness. I think Matthew you were buried in weakness you will be raised in strength. So the struggle has been not in the living that God exists, not that God is evil because God is good. But I have this other little tiny pot when there's questions I can't answer like did Matthew think of us before he pulled the trigger? Did he -- was there any moment in which he suffered? Why after all those years of prayer and effort did he die? All these things that I have no answers for and I put them in this little pot, it's my mystery pot so here's my Hope box and my little mystery pot and so everyday I almost, I fill it with another question that I can't answer. But what I know to be true is that God will answer those questions. They will be answered and my hope is very certain.

A Closing Word of Hope

Kay:
It's so important that people know no matter how desperate, they're despaired, there is hope. There is -- and not to give up, not to give up.
Source: CNN Transcripts I also wanted to share some of my favorite responses from friends on Twitter... Please, feel free to offer your feedback on the interview in the comments below.

Recent Articles

5 Reasons Church Covenants Work

5 Reasons Church Covenants Work

Commitments are the secret sauce of spiritual growth. Think back to the key times of growth in your own spiritual journey, and you'll likely be pointing to times of commitment. For example:The moment you gave your life to Christ.The day you decided to get baptized.The season when you began reading your Bible regularly.If you want to see your congregation grow closer to Jesus, you need to help them make commitments to the purposes of God. At Saddleback, we’ve done that through a series of covenants where people commit to church membership, maturity, ministry, and missions. Spiritual Growth Begins with CommitmentSpiritual growth isn’t automatic. You can grow old without growing up. Growth is a product of commitment. Without commitments, we live in perpetual immaturity. Think about the growth that comes after you accept your first job, or when you get married. You grow up, too, when you have children. No one is ever “ready” for marriage or children. You get ready after you’ve made those commitments. The same is true in our relationship with God. That’s why, during my years pastoring Saddleback, we didn’t work toward spiritual commitments. We worked from spiritual commitments. That means we started with whatever commitments people had already made. Here’s what that can look like:When a person makes a commitment to Christ, we lead them toward baptism. Then it’s time for the membership class. In CLASS 101, new members sign a covenant where they commit to:Protect the unity of the church.Share the responsibility of the church.Serve the ministry of the church.Support the testimony of the church. Then those commitments lead to the commitments in the discipleship, ministry, and missions covenants. Why Covenants WorkThe most important part of a wedding ceremony isn’t the moment the bride walks down the aisle. It’s not when the pastor says the groom may kiss the bride. The most important part is when the man and woman exchange vows and make commitments to one another before witnesses. The same is true for church covenants. At Saddleback, our membership, maturity, ministry, and missions covenants are the most important parts of our CLASS system.Here’s why those covenants are so important. 1. We become what we’re committed to.Our lives are a sum of the commitments we make. Sit down with someone and ask them what they’re committed to today, and you’ll know the contours of the rest of their lives (assuming those commitments don’t change). Commitments establish a person’s character. That means the key to leading people to grow spiritually is helping them commit to the disciplines that help Christians grow—such as commitments to worship, build meaningful relationships, read the Bible, pray, serve, and share the Good News. 2. Commitments define churches. Your church isn’t defined by its programs or the building it meets in or the pastor’s preaching. What really defines a church is the commitments the people in it make together.A motto Saddleback has lived out for decades has been, “A great commitment to the Great Commandment and the Great Commission grows a great church.” During my years as pastor there, that commitment shaped every decision we made.3. People want to be committed to something that brings significance. I always told people in our membership class at Saddleback that they couldn’t do anything more important with their lives than join the church, grow in maturity, get involved in ministry, and begin fulfilling their mission in the world. Those investments would outlast anything else they might do in life. People want to give their lives to something important. They long for their lives to count. Intuitively, they know nothing else fits the bill—not their careers, not their hobbies, and not even their families. As a pastor, you have an opportunity to show people a commitment worth giving their lives to. 4. If you don’t ask, others will.Everyone seems to ask for commitments these days. Travel sports leagues want families to commit. Employers are pushing for more commitment. If you’re not asking the people in your church to make commitments, their schedules will get packed with everything else. As a pastor, part of your job is to guide people toward making the right commitments—ones that help them live out God’s purposes for their lives.5. Covenants clarify vision and values.When your church’s members sign on to your church covenant, they know your vision and values. The covenant reinforces the mission and values that drive your church—and ensures that new members understand them and will work toward them in the future.To learn more about how your church can use covenants to drive spiritual growth, check out the CLASS materials.
Learn From Failure

Learn From Failure

Every pastor makes mistakes; every pastor has defeats. Mistakes are a part of life. Sadly, so is sin. Not even a pastor can escape Romans 3:23: “All of us have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory” (CEV). None of us are perfect. The difference between successful and unsuccessful leaders isn’t that the successful people don’t fail. The difference is that successful leaders learn from their failures. I heard a story years ago about a young man who asked an executive, “What is the secret of success?” “The secret of success is the right decisions,” the executive responded.  “How do you make the right decisions?” “By experience.” “How do you get experience?” “By making mistakes.” I always told my staff at Saddleback to call failure an education. We did more things that didn’t work than did. That means I had a highly educated staff! But the important part was we weren’t afraid to admit our mistakes and learn from them. The road to success is paved with failure. But what’s critical is this: We need to learn from those failures. You can read a good example of learning from failures in Joshua 7. After the Israelites’ great victory at Jericho, they came to the little town of Ai.   The Israelites had just taken on the greatest, most fortified city in the land—and had a resounding military victory. Then they got a little cocky and presumed upon God’s grace. Joshua sent only about 3,000 troops into the town to capture it—and his soldiers were defeated.  But take note of how Joshua responded. He threw himself onto the ground and prayed, and God told him he needed to take care of a problem in the community. A man named Achan had taken some spoils of war when God had clearly told them not to; the entire camp was suffering because of Achan’s sin.  God told Joshua to act, and that’s exactly what he did. Joshua could have defended Achan and refused to confront his sin. Instead, he admitted that Israel had sin in the camp.  He allowed himself to be corrected by his defeat—and that’s a mark of a great leader.  Pastor, be big enough to admit your error. The real mark of leadership is the willingness to say to your people in your church, “I was wrong. I made a mistake.” But do you know what’s better than learning from your mistakes? Learning from the mistakes of others. It’s wise to learn from experience, but it’s wiser to learn from the experiences of others. We don’t have time to make all the mistakes ourselves. Of course, that means learning from people you know. When you see people failing, talk with them. Ask questions about what they’ve learned—and be alert to what they may still have to learn.  And do these things too: Read biographies. Be teachable. Pray for insight. Always be on the lookout for people who have failed and recovered.  Whatever you do, be corrected by your defeats and learn from the mistakes of others so you won’t have to make all of the mistakes yourself.
How to Find Joy in Your Relationships

How to Find Joy in Your Relationships

Relationships are at the heart of every ministry. Whether those relationships are with your family, your congregation, or your community, you’ll be miserable in life and ministry if your relationships aren’t healthy. God wants us to enjoy the people in our lives. In the book of Philippians, Paul models four principles to help us find joy in our relationships.  Be grateful for the good in people. “I thank my God for all the memories I have of you” (Philippians 1:3 GW). Paul focused on the good memories instead of the bad ones. And if you recall in Acts 16, you’ll remember the bad memories Paul could have focused on while he was in Philippi, but didn’t. He was arrested, whipped, humiliated, and thrown in prison. While in prison, there was an earthquake. Then the Roman officials in the town asked him to leave. Paul had a rough time in Philippi, but he chose to focus on what he was grateful for.  To follow Paul’s example, we don’t need to deny the hurts in our lives. Neither do we need to excuse the weaknesses of others. Instead, focus on the good and emphasize the strengths of other people. Practice positive praying. “In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy” (Philippians 1:4 NIV). Praying positively for people will change both your attitude and the other person’s. People may resist our advice, spurn our appeals, reject our suggestions, and not accept our help, but they are powerless against our prayers. In Philippians 1:9-11 (NIV), Paul models four specific ways we can pray positively for others. Pray they will grow in love. “Your love may abound.” (This phrase means to overflow, like a tidal wave.) Pray they make wise choices. “Discern what is best.” Pray they will do the right thing. “Be pure and blameless.” Pray they will live for God’s glory. “The fruit of righteousness.” Most of us are good at praying for people in crisis, but let’s commit to praying specifically and regularly for people who may struggle in these four areas. Doing so will transform our relationships with them. Be patient with people’s progress. “God is the one who began this good work in you, and I am certain that he won't stop before it is complete on the day that Christ Jesus returns” (Philippians 1:6 CEV). Paul looked at people’s future, not just their past. He looked at their potential and was patient with their progress. Mankind is a great starter but a bad finisher. Man leaves unfinished symphonies, unfinished buildings, unfinished books, and unfinished projects. Man doesn’t always finish what he starts, but God always finishes what he starts. We should model God’s patience with people’s progress. To enjoy people, we must give them room to grow and develop, just as God does with us. Love people from the heart. “God knows how much I love you and long for you with the tender compassion of Christ Jesus” (Philippians 1:8 NLT). Loving people begins with understanding why they act the way they do. You can’t love people you don’t understand. If you care, you’ll be aware. You get understanding by asking questions and then listening to the responses.  Understanding people helps you love them better, but it still doesn’t get you to the love Paul described in Philippians 1:8. Paul said he loved the church of Philippi “with the tender compassion of Christ Jesus” (NLT). Only Jesus—working through you—can love people like that.  God’s love isn’t something you can force. It’s a gift that you get as you let the Holy Spirit work through you. “God has poured out his love into our hearts by means of the Holy Spirit, who is God's gift to us” (Romans 5:5 GNT). Life is too short to not enjoy the people in your life. If you don’t learn to enjoy those who God has placed in your life, you will be miserable. That’s why you need to learn how to respond to them the way Jesus did.
Why You Should Launch Mental Health Groups at Your Church

Why You Should Launch Mental Health Groups at Your Church

If you are reading this article then most likely you have a passion, burden, or possibly a curiosity about mental health and the role the church can play in effectively caring for those affected by a mental health disorder.The following are a few reasons why I got involved and took action to launch mental health groups at our church.1. I Needed It!My wife and I have been in ministry almost 30 years, serving in several different pastoral roles. However, we never imagined that we would be serving in our current role at our church now. We are the Restoration Life Group Pastors at New Life Church in Little Rock, AR, overseeing small groups for individuals impacted by mental health, addiction, grief, abuse, or trauma."When we were experiencing those dark times over and over again without any end in sight, it began to drain us."My wife grew up in a family that was impacted by addiction and—unknowingly—mental health disorders. Little did we know that we would walk a dark and lonely journey for many years in our own family. Approximately four years ago, it would come to a critical crisis moment that would change the path and direction for our family of four. As pastors, Kim and I were used to caring for others and supporting them through difficult times. However, when we were experiencing those dark times over and over again without any end in sight, it began to drain us. Existing and making it through each day seemed to be the goal. Passions, dreams, and vision seemed to fade and the goal of seeing joy and happiness return within ourselves and our children was the target. Everything else seemed insignificant.Who can we talk to? Who can understand and will listen without giving their opinion or unsolicited counsel? Where is a place that is safe and where we can share our fears, pains, struggles, anger, grief, helplessness and even hopelessness?Then in 2014, we heard about Grace Alliance for the first time as we listened to Dr. Matthew Stanford speak on the live stream of the Mental Health and the Church conference (The Gathering by Saddleback Church). Not long after, I contacted the Grace Alliance. After sharing my story and hearing about the hope of the Grace Alliance, I contacted others in our church who had similar stories and we started a Family Grace Group in our church. We have completed four cycles of the curriculum with possibilities for more in the future! The stories of hope and encouragement are a consistent testimony within our members.2. To Offer Hope to Others.Something that seemed to be launched out of our need has now proven to be a beacon of hope for a growing number of others in our church and community. We knew that there had to be many others who shared our experiences and were also in need of support."Since launching the groups, it has been remarkable to see the impact that the group has had on us and others who have attended." Many attend for the first time feeling timid, broken, exhausted, overwhelmed, stressed, confused, angry, fearful or even relieved, excited to find others in similar circumstances with familiar storylines. The stories are heartbreaking, but the encouragement and hope found within those stories is nothing short of God’s faithfulness and grace extended.We’re building a network of support that goes much further than a weekly meeting. It has become a community of friendships that understand and encourage one another.3. To Provide a Resource for Our Staff and Leaders.Our Family and Living Grace Groups have become a resource for our pastors and ministry leaders to now be able to refer family members who are struggling with a teen, spouse, or a loved one with mental illness or battling addiction.During a past life group launch, a pastor sought me out and introduced me to a man who was in a serious crisis with a family member. I spent the rest of the evening listening to him and sharing a portion of my journey. He started attending our Family Grace Group and was able to find a Christ-centered ministry recovery center for his daughter. The Grace Group provided vital encouragement for the parents during their daughter's time away. A few months after she returned, she attended our group and shared what God did—and is doing—in her life. Needless to say, the entire group shed some tears of joy and celebration!Our church staff can now easily connect individuals and families to a place where they know they will be supported. This equips and empowers our staff to effectively care for those who enter our churches.I knew when we launched our support group that it would be our goal to see these groups implemented at all of our New Life campuses across the state of Arkansas. We currently have 12 campuses with the vision of 50 statewide.As a pastor, I highly recommend every church implement some form of mental health group or ministry.  The Grace Alliance is an amazing resource to assist you with training, materials, and support. This article was originally published by The Grace Alliance and is reposted here with permission. Dale Hull | Restoration Pastor, New Life Church, Little Rock, AR
CATEGORIES
TOPICS
MORE RESOURCES
CUSTOMER SERVICE
© COPYRIGHT 2025 Pastors.com All rights reserved.
PO Box 80448 Rancho Santa Margarita, California 92688
At Pastors.com, our passion is to have healthy pastors leading healthy churches for the global glory of God.