Brother Christopher,
i agree with your estimation about the Christian community sitting back and allowing things to happen. i hear many in churches now complaining about the election of President Obama and some of the anit Christian remarks and things he has done.
Yet I hear and have continued to hear church people who profess Christianity who voted for him. they also voted for the people of the electoral college who put him in office.
Christians have been sitting back for years and doing nothing. I know many who did not even go vote.
In America the body of Christ is in bad condition on the issue of marriage and several other issues because we choose to be by doing nothing. If we acted the way the body of Christ is supposed to act and did what we are supposed to do and preached the word to all the world baptising all, I can't help but think we may not be in this situation.
Now because I am former military and a conservative as well as a pastor, Homeland security has me listed as a possible terrror recruit!
All these things are allowed to happen because WE do nothing about it. A house divided can not stand and man can not serve two masters. We have fallen into this in many areas because we allow the world to silence us.
i have been called a radical by other pastors. My own brothers! Those pastors who know me well, know the truth. the fire still burns white hot in my heart for Jesus.
Either we are men of God or we are not. Either we are Christians or we are all blowing smoke on any issue discussed here. there are Christians sitting in every church in America who do not use biblical teaching when they vote. Frankly there are few candidates who are godly as well. that again is our fault. we don't put people in charge to run. Look at what the media did to Sarah Palin.
Phil
Pastor Phil,
Many of the allegations about Obama making anti-Christian remarks are just as false as the allegations that atheists make about Christians and creationists. One of the most important things to teach people in any controversial issue is to represent the other side truthfully and fairly. To do otherwise is nothing less than dishonesty. I went to primary sources to check the validity of allegations that some of my relatives were making about Obama. We are all extremely conservative Christians (more conservative than most anyone here actually). But, I can NOT abide falsehood of any type because A) God says it's an abomination and B) I'm currently going through extremely hard times because of losing $170,000 due to some business partners who were dishonest and broke contracts. Falsehood should not enter the conversation of Christians since Satan is the father of lies as Jesus said.
I am a Christian professor and a youth pastor. My father has been a father for decades. My uncles is a university theology professor. All three of us strongly supported Obama and opposed Bush and McCain from the beginning for very strongly biblical and theological reasons. With all due respect, the Bible is NOT republican and neither is it democrat. In some crucial areas, the democrat party follows the Bible much more closely than republicans do. But, in certain areas republicans do better. But far more important than the party is the character of the man. Does the man use falsehood against rivals? Has he been faithful to his wife? Does he control his tongue? Does he treat people in other countries with respect and integrity or just run over them like a diesel truck? Does he think physical force is one of the first options in a disagreement or one of the last? Does he follow Bible economics where the Bible says that the government is responsible to try to care for the poor or does he follow capitalism emasculated of biblical ethics? Does he follow the party line or does he think in terms of what's actually effective? (in the abortion area for example, helping the poor have a basic decent quality of life and helping them have the basic necessities of life WITHOUT enabling them to be lazy is FAR FAR more effective at reducing abortion than just making abortion illegal.). These are just a few of the many questions that Christian pastors need to educate people to think about when they are voting.
I'll tell you that if people used the Bible in the last election and looked at McCain's track record of adultery, affairs, using foul mouthed language, tendency towards using military quickly to solve problems, his and Sarah Palin's extremely offensive addiction to lying about Obama (McCain was far better than Palin at first...but then descended into the pit of lying), that McCain is on record as saying that he's not born again and his positions on a number of areas that are far more in conflict with the Bible than Obama's are (especially is this true in economics which is by far one of the most important responsibilities of the government according to the Bible and as Dr. Doug Kmiec of pepperdine University points out will actually solve the abortion problem far more effectively than making it illegal since countries like Finland that guarantee the basic necessities for the poor have less than 1/4th the rate of abortions that the US does. In Korea where I livee by the way, abortion is illegal. But, that didn't stop about 43% of pregnant women from getting abortions last year. This and many other examples prove that t's a fallacy that making something illegal is really going to stop the unwanted behaviour. Jesus' power in an individuals life is what really changes unwanted behaviours and THAT is where church efforts are supposed to be directed. That and making sure people are being educated about true facts regarding homosexuality such as the scientifically documented fact that homsexuality will reduce their lifespan by about 10-20 years on average.)
Frankly, I don't see how anyone with a deep and accurate knowledge of the Bible could vote for McCain. But, I'm not going to say that someone isn't Christian just because they voted for McCain.
It is wrong for people to vote along party lines. Jesus never would have done that. He would have looked at the character and integrity and positions of each candidate and voted accordingly. I am not a democrat or a republican (I voted for 8 republicans and 7 democrats in the last election). I am actually a Biblical Jubileeist if I were to label myself :)...unfortunately we're a VERY small party at present...but maybe things will change someday.
You speak of the problem of Christians doing nothing. I agree this is a problem in many churches...but I really don't think that legislating morality that others don't agree with is an effective approach. In fact, it will probably cause the opposite result. People will get interested in the controversy, feel sympathy for the "martyrs" who are being "mistreated" and some might even convert that way. This is a complex area I realize and we shouldn't only follow the majority opinion on what laws to make. But, in my opinion, we should look at what the Bible says the responsibilities of government are AND consider that Israel was a theocracy and we are not AND consider what will actually be most effective at helping people follow the Bible. There are exceptions, but often, making laws is one of the least effective responses to reducing unwanted behaviours. Look at the drug trade for example. Making them illegal has done VERY VERY little towards solving the problem and being exorbitantly expensive. Does ANYONE really think that making gay marraige illegal is going to stop anyone from engaging in that behaviour? If so, I'd suggest looking at how widespread drug use is even though it's illegal.
God bless,
Bryan
Bryan,
Great discussion! While I agree with many of your views I admit I do not agree with some. I myself do not vote along party lines. I also know well the Senator McCain is no saint. Frankly i was concerned about his mental health after all he had been through, but my list of reasons not to vote for Pres Obama was very long. too long in fact for this thread.
I spent years in Law enforcemnt and have worked covert drug operations. I can tell you that as long as there is money in drugs, "most of which is blood money," making them illegal means nothing. I do have a problem with President Obama from more than just the view of a Christian faith. I am conservative and can not stand with someone who would take the life of a child or consider that a right. My ministry is fighting for the lives of children every day. We want them to know there is a God on a throne who has not forgetten them. Yet we send the signal that life is meaningless with our behaviors. I think from reading your e-mail we likely view abortion the same way. I also do not agree with the use of embrios for stems cells. More over since we have the ability to harvest stems cells with out the sacrafice of human life. I am all for finding cures and have had my loved one touched by some of the health issues at hand.
The issue I spoke of with concerns to president Obama I read in the news. I did not take this off someones e-mail and just use it. I know that was not what you were implying. My goodness, if I passed on every nasty things about Pres. Obama I receive, I could spend large amounts of time doing so. Even with disagreeing with him, i have prayed for him and will continue to do so. Being a well educated man with a Ph.D myself and a professor at a small private mid career college, I appreciate and do respect your positions as well as your thoughtful views.
I guess for me I wonder why we as Christians sit back and allow the word of God to be silenced. We do not run candidates for positions that could effect government to the positive. while I do not want the church running government, "look at old world England for an example of that," I do think that we can't allow things to progress without takig a stance and speaking out when things are wrong. Most Christians do not do that and do not look at our values before voting. Lets face itmost people looked at finances, health care and the war.
A new example would be Miss California. The Miss California Board is now looking to take that title away and the all began because she stood firm on the subject of marriage. Donald Trumps comments was, " Well the problem is that she is just so darn good looking! " I saw that one on the news monday night for myself. Pagent title aside, it send a signal that unless we conform to the immoral minority, we will pay a price.
If we are the body, isn't it only logical that we do what needs to be done to effect the world for the Lord? If we are to effect the world for Jesus and obey Matt 28, then don't we need to open our mouths? whether they hear or not in on them but i do believe we need to at least make sure we are heard and i do not see it happening.
Perhaps we can't and shouldn't legislate morality but does that mean that we should legislate immorality?
God Bless you as well brother and thank you very much for the great conversation. this is what i was looking for hear, good conversation and thought to ponder. I need to go ut again thanks for the good conversation
The gay movement is very pleased with the election of Obama, not only will he help the advance ther agenda, he will support their agenda 125%.
As pastors we need not vote along party lines, we need to vote on the moral issues of the candidates. When it comes to promises all of them will say this and that, and most polititians if not all, are a bunch of liers.
The reason why R.W. apology to his gay friends came as a shock, is because you can not compromise your values. You can love your friends and still keep your principles.
To some may seem that we hate same sex couples. To the contrary, we need to pray for them and ask God to come into their hearts. But we can never compromise the teachings of the Holy Scripture.
Pastor Arce,
Warren's apology was NOT changing his position on gay marriage. It was apologizing for comparing the gay life style to incest, something that is very untrue and a false comparison logical fallacy. Rick Warren was very correct in apologizing for using this logical fallacy, but he is NOT changing his position that homosexual marriage is biblically wrong.
Hi Phil,
Yes, good discussion. Just wish I was freer to dialogue more in depth.
Yes, I know there is no perfect candidate. And I respect those who didn't vote for Obama, esp. those who didn't just use one or two issues as a litmus test which is a very superficial, unbiblical and unthinking way to vote. On the abortion issue, you really need to read Doug Kmiec's site www.prolifeproobama.com. Do you want to fight for an anti-abortion law that will not change things effectively or do you want to focus on establishing biblical economics (that many great thinkers from other worldviews also agree with) that will solve a horde of problems INCLUDING directly causing a FAR more significant reduction in abortions than any law will accomplish.
Regarding my position on abortion, I'm close to pro-life, but not completely. I think in many cases the issue is far deeper than most people think. For example, the children of single mothers are FAR more likely to engage in a host of destructive behaviours that don't just negatively affect themselves, but many around them both on earth and for eternity. It's not just possible, but very likely that in some cases, a baby born to a mother who is not ready or competent to raise it could cause more death both physical and spiritual than if the mother waited until she was ready. Yet, I don't think abortion should be done just for convenience either. Then there's the problem of the Bible never mentioning the word abortion even though the practice was widespread throughout the Greek and Roman world. I think we should think of the best overall good for many lives and not just one life. But, it's a complex issue for sure. So, I would kind of say that in most cases, it should not be an option, but there are some cases that it might be better to allow it if we consider the good of the community and eternal destinies.
News sources are better than e-mails for sure, but some news sources are extremely dishonest. Sadly this includes many Christian conservative news sources, ESPECIALLY Fox news and WND and similar ones. I'm embarrassed to call my a conservative when immoral publications like those call themselves conservatives. I don't care what they other side does. Christians have no business whatsoever lying and engaging in all sorts of logical fallacies about those we disagree with. It ends up making us look very bad.
Yes, I do think we should run more candidates for govt. that are good moral examples and great leaders. I would particularly be interested in one who was promoting creationism and biblical economics, Jubilee (or something similar called Land Rent that's a lot easier to implement in our modern society).
Yes, many people do vote based on money, health care and the war. Many also vote ONLY/MOSTLY on abortion and homosexual marriage. ALL issues should be weighed carefully.
Miss California was treated unfairly I think in the Miss USA competition and people shouldn't be crucified for having a different position from the majority as she was, but she also violated her contract which she shouldn't have done.
Regarding church and state, it seems to me that we should look at what the Bible says are the responsibilities and boundaries of government and then try to influence the government in those ways, but be very careful and cautious about going beyond that. Have you seen the movie, "Amazing Grace". It's quite an awesome movie (although I wish they would have included more of Newton's background and conversion and a few other things). Christians have been involved in many human rights campaigns and I think we should always do that when the Bible is very clear on an issue in words or in principle. But, the danger is that Revelation has prophecies that explicitly prophecy that churches will be involved in forcing the world to receive the mark of the beast (since a woman in scripture represents a church) and we might be helping that to be fulfilled faster. So, while I know this prophecy
will happen for sure in the future, I want to delay that day of persecution so more can have a chance to be saved...but at some point it will come and that will lead to the end of the world and the elimination of sin, a very very good day that all God's people and even creation has been waiting and yearning for for so long.
Have a great week and God bless in your ministry as well. Nice to have some good discussions to gether. Sorry, I can't always reply immediately. I'm working at 5 schools to pay off debts plus leading and starting a new youth church and family and debating atheists, doing Bible studies, Bible clubs, etc. Keeps me hopping :).
In His service,
I appreciate the fact that Bryan has now exposed himself as a moral relativist all the while moralizing about others.
John,
With all due respect, why do you think complete misrepresentation is Christlike, advances truth or has any integrity to it? I am pretty much the direct anti-thesis of moral relativist in almost every topic imaginable. The thing that probably bothers you is that is in the area of abortion (as well as MANY others) I follow the solid Bible principle of not adding to or subtracting from the Bible as both Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22 and other places instruct us.
"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." Deuteronomy 4:2
Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Whether it's the issue of abortion or the issue of keeping the unbiblical Sunday or others, I hold strongly to the protestant creed of "The Bible and the Bible only" as the foundation of what we believe is moral and what we should spend our time and efforts on. But, in the abortion issue that you are probably concerned about and referring to, the fact is that if we deal with the economics issues and follow Bible economics as God has said we should in literally 1000s of verses in BOTH churches AND governments, it will save far more babies lives than anything else we could do as well as solving all sorts of other problems ranging from sex slavery to welfare abuses and so many more. The Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil, I believe that. Very few Christians take this seriously. If you can solve the economic injustices, MANY of the most serious problems in our world will be greatly reduced or even disappear.
The question for you is, do you like superficial solutions that don't really work but sound good on paper and make good rhetoric, or do you really want to put your money, influence and time where your mouth is and where the Bible says they should be into solutions that REALLY DO save many more lives than any superficial anti-abortion law could ever do.
Christians at all levels need to think a LOT more deeply about what is really effective in producing the changes God wants in our churches and in our government. There are VERY FEW churches that take God's instructions regarding economics seriously. And yet economics issues are the root of so many evils worldwide. High rates of abortion are just one SMALL result of unjust economics. Do you really care about SOLVING or at least greatly reducing abortions or are you content to follow the herd and put enormous efforts into things that won't really be effective even if you do succeed. THAT is the real question. Remember. I am American. I live in a country, Korea, where abortions ARE illegal. Korea is in advance of America in quite a few areas including educationally (Korean high school students were rated #1 in a worldwide national comparison study and it's very true.) and technologically (we get a variety of technologies such as cell phone technologies and internet technologies years before Americans do.). They have incredible technological ability and yet 43% of pregnancies were aborted in a recent study. That shows you that making something illegal isn't going to do much to stop it when someone is desperate.
What's better, to work on laws that won't work anyway, or to do what God said to begin with and work on A) changing hearts and minds with God's spirit and B) trying to reform our churches AND governments to follow God's economics which will solve NUMEROUS terrible moral problems in our societies. If even churches alone would truly follow God's economics it would be vastly more effective than making some law that will be ineffective anyway. Are you really seriously concerned about changing immoral problems with God's help? If so, you and other Christians, esp. pastors, need to change your priorities quite a bit.
Bryan Bissell: I'm close to pro-life, I'm sure the baby's being tortured to death in the womb will appreciate your magnanimous position I think in many cases the issue is far deeper than most people think. Let's see: the baby is a human (not a dog or cat or other animal). The baby is innocent (hasn't committed any crime). Abortion kills this innocent human being. The Bible (and most civilized jurisprudence) calls that murder. That doesn't seem too deep to me. For example, the children of single mothers are FAR more likely to engage in a host of destructive behaviours that don't just negatively affect themselves, but many around them both on earth and for eternity. It's not just possible, but very likely that in some cases, a baby born to a mother who is not ready or competent to raise it could cause more death both physical and spiritual than if the mother waited until she was ready. Wow! If I didn't see this in print, I would never believe a professing Christian wrote it. A baby should be murdered because of the ill-effects of a bad parent. That's probably the dumbest thing I've read on Pastors.com in my years surfing this site. Yet, I don't think abortion should be done just for convenience either. Then there's the problem of the Bible never mentioning the word abortion. In philosophy 101 this was called, "an argument from silence." A very poor argument -- and even poorer when you consider you are using it to justify the taking of innocent human life. I think we should think of the best overall good for many lives and not just one life. Try this argument: the food you eat in one meal could save tens (maybe hundreds) of starving children. Are you ready to stop eating for the good of the many -- I doubt it. But, it's a complex issue for sure. So, I would kind of say that in most cases, it should not be an option, but there are some cases that it might be better to allow it if we consider the good of the community and eternal destinies. I'm embarrassed to call my {sic} a conservative Finally, something we agree on -- I'm also embarrassed you call yourself a conservative. If my remarks offend you because they seem too strong please know I offer no apology. Your remarks are as dangerous as they are unsound. Jack
I'm close to pro-life,
I'm sure the baby's being tortured to death in the womb will appreciate your magnanimous position
I think in many cases the issue is far deeper than most people think.
Let's see: the baby is a human (not a dog or cat or other animal). The baby is innocent (hasn't committed any crime). Abortion kills this innocent human being. The Bible (and most civilized jurisprudence) calls that murder. That doesn't seem too deep to me.
For example, the children of single mothers are FAR more likely to engage in a host of destructive behaviours that don't just negatively affect themselves, but many around them both on earth and for eternity. It's not just possible, but very likely that in some cases, a baby born to a mother who is not ready or competent to raise it could cause more death both physical and spiritual than if the mother waited until she was ready.
Wow! If I didn't see this in print, I would never believe a professing Christian wrote it. A baby should be murdered because of the ill-effects of a bad parent. That's probably the dumbest thing I've read on Pastors.com in my years surfing this site.
Yet, I don't think abortion should be done just for convenience either. Then there's the problem of the Bible never mentioning the word abortion.
In philosophy 101 this was called, "an argument from silence." A very poor argument -- and even poorer when you consider you are using it to justify the taking of innocent human life.
I think we should think of the best overall good for many lives and not just one life.
Try this argument: the food you eat in one meal could save tens (maybe hundreds) of starving children. Are you ready to stop eating for the good of the many -- I doubt it.
But, it's a complex issue for sure. So, I would kind of say that in most cases, it should not be an option, but there are some cases that it might be better to allow it if we consider the good of the community and eternal destinies.
I'm embarrassed to call my {sic} a conservative
Finally, something we agree on -- I'm also embarrassed you call yourself a conservative.
If my remarks offend you because they seem too strong please know I offer no apology. Your remarks are as dangerous as they are unsound.
Jack
.
Wow. Simply stunning. If we are going to take life when it it "for the good of the community" - that is one of the scariest and most dangerous ideas one could imagine.
Look out Senior adults. Look out those with physical and mental disabilities. Look out if you have money (it would benefit the community for us to kill you off and spread your cash around).
I knew there were folks out there that believe this sort of thing - but wow.
BTW, there is nothing conservative about any of your views.
Mark
Jack,
You can speculate all you want. But, several facts remain:
A) God tells us not to add or subtract from his laws. That's NOT an argument from silence Jack. It's a command of God. If God doesn't say anything about something directly or in VERY clear principles that in no uncertain terms apply to that, Christians should not be forcing others to follow their opinions. This is what the Catholic church did for centuries. You are following the same philosophy they did.
The Bible NEVER ANYWHERE calls abortion murder. And this is extremely important because abortion was WIDESPREAD during Bible times (including Jesus' time) and God should have made some very strong statements about it if he thought it was equivalent to murder. He gave all kinds of details about all kinds of laws, even down to what kind of clothing people should wear...yet he said nothing about abortion...do you think God somehow "forgot" to mention abortion and "remembered" to mention things like not mixing different kinds of cloth in the same piece of clothing, putting fences on roofs, how to diagnose skin diseases, details about not eating fat and blood and all sorts of other laws that are FAR more trivial than abortion if God really considers abortion murder. I'm sorry, but if you think so, then biblical logic is not really a part of your reasoning process.
B) OK. Let me back up my words with a few of the many researched and solid facts since it seems you don't want to go to any websites that I've recommended to become informed on this issue. I'm spending lots of precious time on this that I really don't have so that you and others will fight for things that really work instead of ineffective fantasies due to superficial, unbiblical and unscientific reasoning. If you really want abortions reduced as you SUPPOSEDLY say you do, the #1 thing you should be doing is fighting for for socialism to be implemented in America since socialist European countries have FAR FAR fewer abortions than American does percentagewise. American has 4 times more abortions percentage wise than Finland for example. Denmark is 80% Christian and also has a very low abortion rate and is also the happiest country in the world year after year AND it's socialist. It's simple logic why socialist countries have fewer abortions than America. Mothers who have decent financial support are FAR less likely to have abortions than those who are desperate. Even better, FAR better, would be to follow Biblical economics which is very socialistic in many aspects, but removes the biggest problem of socialism, that of giving people money for nothing. If you want more details on BIBLE economics,read files 4,14 and 17 here:
http://www.eslmission.org/resources.php?id=5
If you and other Christians REALLY care about reducing abortions, you will promote socialism or Bible economics. But, I don't believe most Christians, including you, care enough about abortion to really put your money where your mouth is. You prefer the sinfully greed based system of capitalism to the biblical economic principles that socialism follows better than America does (but it's not perfect). The ironic fact is that Bible economics causes economic expansion up to 3 times more than capitalism does and this is documented in ancient and recent history...yet many Christians think sinful greed based capitalism is an 11th commandment or something. America itself was following Bible economics in it's early history in quite a number of places...but then it stopped doing that sadly..and we are experiencing the traumatic results presently.
On to the facts that come from http://www.prolifeproobama.com/plpo_abortionfacts.htm and http://www.twopaths.com/faq_abortion.htm These are FACTS, not fantasies about what really works to reduce abortions. If you have any integrity in you and concern for REALLY reducing abortions as YOU SUPPOSEDLY say you do (but I don't really believe it at present since you refuse to get educated about what's really effective), these facts prove conclusively that dealing with the economic injustices of capitalism is what you should be spending your time on. A couple of the facts from the above sites:
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Overturning Roe Vs. Wade Will Not End Abortion in America
Source: Catholics United Study "Reducing Abortion in America: Beyond Roe v. Wade"--
Studies Show that Economic Support for Women and Families Reduces Abortion
Source: Joseph Wright and Michael Bailey, "Reducing Abortion in America :
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The Effect of Economic and Social Supports" (Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good) and The Guttmacher Institute "An Overview of Abortion in The United States"
Source: Guttmacher Institute, "An Overview of Abortion in The United States"
Dangers of illegal abortions. Before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision legalized abortion throughout the U.S., abortions were allowed in some of the states. In 1972, 586,800 legal abortions were performed in those states.8 It is estimated that between 200,000 and 1,200,000 illegal abortions were also performed each year in the U.S.9 Many women living in areas where abortion was not allowed simply traveled to states or countries where abortion was legal to terminate their pregnancies. Those who could not afford that option often sought out someone to perform the procedure illegally. Some sympathetic doctors were willing to help. But many illegal abortions were performed by unqualified practitioners, and many women suffered exploitation, sexual abuse, injury, infection, sterility and even death at the hands of these "back alley" practitioners.10,11,12 Despite some claims to the contrary, the mainstream of medical opinion is that legal abortions are very safe, with less risk to a woman's physical and mental health than continuing a pregnancy.13
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B) You are misusing vocabulary in several ways. The Bible doesn't call a fetus a human being. Neither is a fetus a baby. Most importantly and again, the Bible NEVER ANYWHERE calls abortion murder. It is unbiblical to use that terminology and inflammatory to do so when the Bible never does so. C) To me Exodus 21 is a MAJOR factor. The penalty for murder, esp. intentional murder in the Bible is death to the murderer. But in this case we have a fetus dying...and yet there is NO/NADA/ZIP penalty for committing murder, only a fine and that fine can easily be understood as injuring the woman. Obviously, the Bible didn't consider it murder since the punishment was NOT the same as the punishment for murder given in other places.D) The sperm and the ovum are human too (not animal, planet, etc.) AND alive. If abortion is murder, then letting these die is a type of murder too if you follow your principles consistently. Cells come together at conception true, but there's nothing in the Bible that guarantees these cells full human rights. There's not even a brain there at that time....that comes at around 7-8 weeks or so. Plus, the sperm and ovum are ALSO human cells before conception, just as they were after conceptions. There are all KINDS of human cells that live and die in our bodies...including 100s and millions of sperm and ovum that have the potential for life in ways not much different from after conception. After the brain and consciousness develops, I would strongly urge people to try to avoid abortion, but still consider the overall effects. E) The abortion and gay marriage and creation science and prayer in school issues are unfortunately a moot point at this time. Republicans haven't done hardly anything to help Christian concerns in these areas…and the democratic majority on both sides of congress makes it impossible for now for these things. BOTH parties have biblical principles that they espouse some non-biblical ideas. In my reading of the Bible, the Democrat is closer to the Bible than the Republican in many areas esp. those that the Bible speaks of the govt. having responsibility. So, let's try to work on biblical changes that Democrats support and hope that they WILL make biblical changes in contrast to the Republicans who haven’t done hardly anything for us for decades.F) Again, A MASSIVE issue for me is whether there are 2 parents to raise the child well so that it has a decent chance of a good life and productive life and being saved for eternity. THE LAST THING WE NEED is more misery, woe and crime in our world...and single parent families have EXTREMELY high chances to cause those. 1 child raised evilly can destroy the earthly and spiritual lives of NUMEROUS others...in some cases millions. I cannot see the LEAST justification in the Bible or in God's dealings with humanity for adding to the misery in our world. You may. I cannot. If a woman knows that she is incompetent as a mother, or unable at present to raise a baby well due to health problems, financial problems, etc., then I do not have a problem with aborting a pregnancy, esp. before a brain, etc. has developed and waiting until she can ensure some kind of decent chance for her offspring to have a decent life here on earth and for eternity. If a fetus's brain has began functioning, it does become a lot more complex in my mind. But, esp. before the fetus brain has started functioning/thoughts happening, etc...I think it's MUCH better to wait until a woman has a husband and they can both give the adequate care a child requires. To ignore the scientific data in this area of how much misery is added to the world by unprepared parents is irresponsible. We just do NOT need more misery in this world and why bring a child into the world that will almost certainly make it worse and be lost for eternity..it just makes not the least bit of sense from any angle that I can see. G) Regarding food, I'm vegetarian for many reasons...one being that eating meat deprives others of food. The grain fed to cows to make ONE steak could feed up to 60 people. So, I don't eat meat at all. I also sometimes eat 2 meals a day and eat VERY simply and am quite healthy. The food I eat could never support even 10 starving children. But, I often give my money and efforts to donate money and support children (through compassion international) and campaign for an end to poverty to help all children to be able to eat.Basically if you are serious about stopping abortion, you'll put your money where your mouth is and start campaigning for either socialism or the far better Bible economics since ACTUAL SOLID research shows that THOSE ECONOMIC systems REALLY produce significant reductions in abortion. Until you do so, to put it simply, you are either very very intentionally and sinfully ignorant/naive or a hypocrite who doesn't even begin to put his money where his mouth is. Truth is hard to take and the #1 sin of pride in traditions and customs is in full force among pastors and Christians and I'm sure you will be struggling with the sin of pride as you read this letter. But, you need to think about what is more important, rhetoric or the lives of fetuses that you profess to be so concerned about but are actually doing nothing practical to help. There is a reason why the Bible has 1000s of verses DIRECTLY dealing with economics at individual, church and government levels and none dealing DIRECTLY with abortion. God didn't make a mistake. You have in setting priorities that don't align with the Bible. Are you going to realign your priorities to match what God says is most important or are you going to follow the prideful sin of the pharisees in putting their traditions and opinions above the clear words of God AND above what will really save the lives of the fetuses you profess to care so much about.I'm sorry if you are offended...but sometimes truth is offensive to those who follow traditions above the Bible. Jesus spoke strongly against this habit of human beings in many places (Mark 7:5-13, John 8, Matthew 23, etc.). So, I'll be blunt with you since you seem to think that's OK. Stop being a hypocrite and put your money where you mouth is and align your life and principles with what God ACTUALLY says are His priorities. When you do that, you will as a direct result actually reduce abortions far more effectively than you EVER could by making abortion illegal. Remember AGAIN, that 43% of pregancies are aborted here in Korea where it's illegal. Don't be naive and so irrational as to think that making something illegal is going to stop it. Do you really want to solve the abortion issue? If you keep on in the same way, you obviously do NOT. If you realign your principles with God's principles instead of following human traditions, then you are a man who truly is submitted to God's holy Spirit and who follows the protestant creed of the "The Bible and The Bible only".Bryan
Mark,
Do you understand what I mean by the good of the community? Please read things in context (and I apologize if I'm not as clear as I should be. I'm teaching in 3 universities, 2 other schools, pastoring a new church plant and have a family at present. So am a SLIGHT bit busy :)). I'm interested in the largest number of people living and having an opportunity to live good lives on earth AND for eternity. If you knew what Hitler was planning to do before WW2, would you think of ending his life? Would you consider ending 1 life if it would save 10 million or a 1000 or even 100? THAT is what I'm referring to in "the good of the community". The saving of the most number of lives for this earth and ESPECIALLY for eternity. God did that sort of thing many times in the Bible and the laws he gave required godly govts. and even the church to do it too.
"BTW, there is nothing conservative about any of your views. "
If you're talking about political conservativism, that is a partial truth. I'm a moderate and have viewpoints on both sides. If your talking about biblical conservatism, with all due respect Mark, this is a flat out lie. There's a very high chance that I'm more conservative than you are. To be a biblical conservative means to take the Bible as it reads, neither adding or subtracting as Deuteronomy 4:2 tells us and Jesus does too in Mark 7 not to replace God's words with human traditions. Just a few of my conservative views:
1) I am STRONGLY in favor of teaching creationism in schools (something Obama doesn't support at present unfortunately).
2) I keep the Saturday Sabbath of the Bible that was is God's holy day from before sin in Eden through the entire OT and NT and which will be celebrated in heaven when it comes to this earth (Isaiah 66:22,23).
3) I support Biblical economics strongly..something very view Christians are even aware of, let alone support.
4) I follow the Bible's health laws and people who do that live about 10 years longer as a result.
5) I believe in the Trinity, salvation by faith alone resulting in sanctification and that the 2 cannot be separated (Roman 1:17, James 2, Hebrews 10:26,27)
and many more beyond that. It's fine to disagree Mark. The Bible says that iron sharpens iron and this can help people to study more deeply into what the Bible says to see which view has the most support. This should be done and there should be no sacred cow traditions or doctrines since traditions have often conflicted with God's principles in the past. But, to lie about your opponents position doesn't have anything to do with being Christlike. Here's a quote from a great Christian writer that is well said:
"If your track is crossed in any way, if any one differs in opinion from you, then in place of feeling humility of mind, in place of carrying your burden to Christ, and asking him for wisdom and light to know what is truth, you draw from him, and are tempted to present your brother's views in a false light, that they shall not have influence. We know that this manner of spirit is not of God, no matter by whom it is manifested. When you see your case as it stands before God, you will have different ideas in regard to your own defects of character than you now have. When views are presented that do not seem in harmony with your own, it should drive you to study your Bible, and investigate it to see if you yourself hold the right position on the subject. That another holds a different opinion, should not stir up the very worst traits of your nature. You should love your brother, and say, "I am willing to investigate your views. Let us come right to the word of God, and prove by the law and the testimony what is truth." {RH, August 27, 1889 par. 3}
I don't consider any of my views set in stone. If people find solid proof in the Bible, I'm very willing to reconsider my views. But, I did not come by my views lightly. Most are based on 1000s of pages of reading from Christian writers and history and science. But, if you want to convince me, you'll have to use a lot of Bible verses and putting them together in a way that actually supports your views hopefully with few or no assumptions. If you can do that, I'll correct myself QUICKLY and thank you for correcting me. I will thank anyone who helps me to have better knowledge than I had no matter how intense a debate gets.
God bless you,
You failed to address what I said. According to what you said earlier, abortion and taking life is ok if it leads to the better good of the community. That is your argument.
Well, Senior adults put quite a financial strain on a lot of folks in the community, and caring for them sure is inconvenient - so, what do you say? When they hit 65 or 70 let's do away with them? And, the mentally and physically disabled? They cost big bucks all their lives - so that's a no brainer - get rid of them now.
Your discussion of Hitler is irrelevant and an attempt to make a point when there is none. Sure, I would take Hitler's life because he was an evil man that would end up taking the life of millions. However, an unborn child is innocent - taking the life of the unborn just to make life better for the irresponsible behavior of it's parents is evil. Suggesting that these two situations are similar is unbelievable.
By the way - what seminary's do you teach at?
Wow! All I can say is wow! In my wildest nightmare I never thought in would hear such words from a man who calims to have felt the call of God on his life.
While true I am a Ph.D and do teach business law among other things, here you area a professor of theology teaching and saying things so unbiblical.
What I thought would be good thought provoking conversation was false teaching in a subversive format.
I am a new member to this and I promise you that this is my last blog in conversation here. If this is the best Christianity has to offer, God save us.
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I suggest you read and study Luke 9:48 really study what a child means to the kingdom of heaven.
Do you realize how many heroes and great men and women who God has used over time and over the course of building America, never would have lived by the standards society sets down today.
I came for exchange of thought and to exchange ideas to help myself better serve the Lord and thought perhaps I could help a brother here and there as well.
I have always held pastors with the highest esteem and expect that we are to held to a higher level.
I'm not going to attack you or even rebut your message.
I would just ask you what you will say when you stand before Jesus? Personally My objective is to serve him with all my heart and to bring my thoughts into alignment with His. My greatest fear is to hear the Lord say, Go away, I never knew you.
Bryan, I am going to pray for you and some day I hope the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to turn from the book knowledge of the world and see through the eyes of faith.
Amen