Headline News

 Most importantly though is changing the wicked economic systems that force people into poverty (most based on capitalism which is very evil in many respects). End Quote

It is no wonder the world is in the shape it is in.  This statement is not only hugely inaccurate, it is irresponsible and offensive.  It is on the same level as people who deny the holocaust.

At least do a little research before you make such a sweeping statement about the evils of capitalism.  I'm not sure that the facts will interest you but here they are:

20 million slaughtered by the Soviet Union; 65 million dead at the hands of the People's Republic of China; 1 million killed by communists in Vietnam; 2 million by communist North Korea; and I could go on and on. 

Those by the way are not "Christian statistics," but cold hard facts.  If you want some Biblical support for captitalism, start with the Ten Commandments -- number 8 to be specific.

Thank God not as many people visit this forum as once was the case.  This mitigates some of the damage done by such posts.

Of course, I say all this in love.

Jack,

Sorry for being a little ambiguous there, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false allegations about me.  I am a youth pastor, but also teach in 3 universities as a professor and sometimes teach units on logical fallacies and I avoid using them like the plague.  Misrepresenting me doesn't help anyone, nor is it something Christians should do to ANYONE.  I have been mostly dealing with atheists and evolutionists and one of the most unfortunate things is that most are extremely unwilling to question the principles that they grew up with or to check their beliefs with real science and historical facts.  Sadly, many Christians also make the same mistake.  I hope that both you and I can be open minded to evidence, instead of just following dogmas like the pharisees.

I was referring to the method of just condemning people to burn in hell, the tactic of focusing all your efforts on scaring people with the horrors of hell, etc.  Yes, speaking about the penalty of hell if people reject God's love can be one SMALL part of convincing people to be on God's side.  But, it doesn't work well at all with secular people who don't even believe in hell (and that's mostly the type of people I deal with).  The fear alone based tactic is not very effective either in converting secular people to Christianity OR in making mature Christians of hardly anyone.  This is especially true when you're dealing with secular people who are highly educated as I do quite a lot.  If the people believe in hell already, it may have some limited effectiveness, but it is not usually going to bring them to any kind of Christian depth.  Fear based religion is a very immature religion and often ends in failure.  I have met MANY MANY people online who left the Christian church because of this kind of approach..and ESP. because they were taught an unbiblical doctrine that makes God about the most sadistic and cruel being in the universe without a hint of fairness or righteousness, the doctrine that hell burns endlessly throughout ceaseless ages.  This has caused millions of people to consider Christianity and it's God as the most immoral thing in the universe and to question whether God even exists at all. There are even satanists on record celebrating that they've tricked Christian churches into believing this doctrine that they invented to distort God's character of love into being a sadistic demon.

For a good overview of the reasons that endless burning is NOT biblical, but temporary burning enacting final justice for all in the world, read the site www.helltruth.com and there are others as well.  The fact is that the Bible tells us that the wicked will be ashes (Malachi 4:1-4), Satan will cease to exist (Isaiah 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:12-19) and all evil will end in the 2nd DEATH (Revelation 20:13-15).  There are a couple places where it sounds like the burning will be forever.  But, this ignores MANY statements like the above and also the fact that the word forever in the Bible (aeon in Greek) is at least 50 times used of things that come to an end. This word often has reference to something continuing until the material or being ceases to exist.

Romans 6:23 puts it very simply:  "The WAGES of SIN is DEATH"

Here's the Revelation 20 verse: "...Each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I hope that Christian realize the humongous damage that this belief of endless hell does to witnessing for God and how we must not misrepresent our God who has a perfect balance of love and justice as the very core of His being.  This false doctrine that terribly distorts who God is must be confronted and ended so that we can end the loss of numerous Christians due to this false belief and stop making non-Christian thinking of God as a sadistic demon due to this belief.

Bryan

P.S.  No, it was NOT just a gratuitous assertion that seeker sensitive preaching has saved the church.  It was actually from statistics that Rick Warren sited in a speech I heard a while ago...although I am not sure if I'm remembering the numbers with precise accuracy.  He was talking about mega churches/seeker sensitive churches and how most of the growth in American churches has come from them in the last few years and he cited statistics as well.

I am just excited that there has finally been a topic on this site that has generated some discussion.  I don't know what keeps me coming back and checking in - i guess just the hope that one day it might come alive - like the old site.

Thanks guys,

mark

Jack,

I'm American.  But, America should not cover up it's atrocities. It should admit and confess  them otherwise it will be not much different from the Japanese govt. which has often tried to avoid admitting their responsibility for forcing 200,000 asian weomen to be sex slaves during World War 2. My friend, Anthony Gilmore has just finished a movie on this terrible crime of the Japanese.  It's called "Behind Forgotten Eyes" and has won many documentary awards already. I highly recommend it.  If you prefer to be an ostrich about many crimes that America has been involved in, that's your right (go to these sites to see a TINY bit of documentation of the crimes:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja6hblM2rlo&feature=related,

2)http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4B7B6893BB22DD37&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=8eGFyEo33eI   .

3) Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II
A detailed record of US foreign policy since World War 2: the widespread death, destruction, and suffering caused by numerous US military and CIA interventions.
www.killinghope.org/

But, it is not at all Christian or biblical to refuse to confess sin. And to call people who've done massive amounts of reading and research on this toipc which you have NOT done is deceit.

As before, there are many American heroes.  But, there are also MANY evil Americans in the military and CIA who have caused immense sufferingaround the world and THIS is the #1 cause BY FAR of terrorism.  Bin Laden put it well when he exposed Bush's propaganda.  Bin Laden (who I do NOT suport even one iota) said that if they hated freedom as Bush falely alleged, they woudl be attacking Sweden.  The fact is that America has sowed the wind in violence and now is reaping SOME of the whirlwind it planted.

I'm actually not at present involved in a seeker type church.  But, what I do detest is deceit and false allegations, esp. about ideas that are effective in bringing people to Christ.   I lost $170,000 and had to close a mission school due to deceitful business partners and nearly my marriage due to that...I've gone through hellbecause of people who don't care about being honest.  So, in addition to the Bible saying that lying is an abomination, I've had personal experience with the horrific results of deceit.

Bryan

Mmitchell,
What America has done in some places is for SURE chilling. But there are also some very heroic things we’ve done that must be highly praised. We should not forget them. America basically saved the world twice in the last century, from nazism and from communism and has done a lot of other great things as well. But, it has also done many unjust things. Read the links above for proof. Read about the School of Americas. Read how we supported dictators, suppressed democracy, overthrew democratically elected leaders in other countries…often because of greed for money and power. Or just read the records of torture under the Bush administration that are now coming to light (and that’s only what’s deemed not a threat to national security). Truly, the love of money is the root of all evil. The last century should confirm that 1000 times over and it’s true in both communism, socialism AND for sure in capitalism. There are other factors too, I agree, that are factors in terrorism. But America’s crimes against numerous innocent people around the globe and it’s use of extensive economic exploitation that forces people into desperate circumstances where they think the best option for them is to become suicide bombers or terrorists of some kind are the major reasons why we have become a target of terrorists. We have sowed the wind and are reaping the whirlwind and that is incontrovertible and it's not just the victims who testify about what happened to them (although that's conclusive proof in itself). Quite a number of the perpetrators in the CIA and military have testified to some of the crimes and human rights abuses they have done to enrich American businesses, guarantee American hegemony and defeat any rivals. In addition we have independent 3rd party human rights agencies who have documented extensively very terrible abuses. If we are Christians, we should be honest about the mistakes and even atrocities that our own nation has committed. This is true patriotism and true Christianity. To do otherwise is to subject the many victims to yet more abuse and injustice.  

Here is one Arab talking (I believe I got this from time magazine) about the REAL reasons many people hate America. If we’re ever going to change America’s image, we’ll have to deal with the facts of history and our mistakes and not believe the ignorant propaganda of people like Bush that muslims are attacking us because they hate our freedoms.
-----
“Many political analysts say that Arab and Muslim societies are fertile land for breeding terrorists because Arabs and Muslims hate Americans' freedom. I believe they are right. Yes we do hate, detest and abhor your freedom. We hate your freedom to carpet bomb anywhere in the world; this freedom that you practised whenever and wherever it suited your interests. We hate your freedom to support then topple tyrannies in any country; slighting the heavy human toll your actions impose on the helpless nations. 

We hate your freedom to supply armies of occupation and oppression with the most evil fruits of human genius, whenever and wherever fits your economical and ideological agendas. We hate your freedom to manipulate public opinions so people can really believe that the destruction of hundreds of thousands of human lives by the most horrific means is a necessary and justifiable collateral damage. In short, we hate your freedom to deny other humans their freedoms and their lives. As to the American's freedom, who cares!”
Amgad, Egypt-Switzerland
-----

John Kenneth Galbraith, economist and author, said something very true about political conservatives, " The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." 

I strongly disagree that we should not care about America’s freedom or ANY nation’s freedom. But most Americans are DRASTICALLY misinformed about the real reasons why terrorism has become such a problem as well as other facts and the Arab above summarizes shortly the #1 reason terrorism at present.  

I didn't know anything about this until I came as a missionary to Korea where I learned about massacres of many innocent civilians in both South and North Korea by the American army and CIA and how we assassinated one of Korea's leading freedom fighters. I didn’t believe it at first (and I don’t expect anyone here to believe this immediately since no one likes to hear about crimes that a church or nation they love has committed. Just look at the Catholic church’s hiding and refusing to admit the problems of pedophelia for many years for a current example). I was shocked completely to hear anyone make these allegations. But, there are so many witnesses of all types that it is impossible to deny that these things happened. I then began to realize why there is so much hatred of America by many people and why terrorism has become such a problem.  

Some people think that patriotism means supporting America whether it’s right or wrong. But, this is NOT what America’s founders or many other great thinkers say. Here are some thoughts on true patriotism:
===========
"Our country is the world, our countrymen are all mankind. We love the land of our nativity, only as we love all other lands. The interests, rights, and liberties of American citizens are no more dear to us than are those of the whole human race. Hence we can allow no appeal to patriotism, to revenge any national insult or injury." ~William Lloyd Garrison, Declaration of Sentiments, Boston Peace Conference, 1838

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." (1918) Theodore Roosevelt

"Patriotism does not oblige us to acquiesce in the destruction of liberty. Patriotism obliges us to question it, at least." Wendy Kaminer

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Samuel Johnson (this man was one of the founders of America and a leader of the revolution against Britain.)

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Hermann Goering

"Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, "the greatest," but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is." Sydney Harris

"He is a poor patriot whose patriotism does not enable him to understand how all men everywhere feel about their altars and their hearthstones, their flag and their fatherland. " ~Harry Emerson Fosdick

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. " ~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." ~George Bernard Shaw

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to ... remain silent." Thomas Jefferson

"If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident." ~Montesquieu

"The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?" Pablo Casals 

"I couldn't help but say to [Mr. Gorbachev], just think how easy his task and mine might be in these meetings that we held if suddenly there was a threat to this world from another planet. [We'd] find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this earth together." ~Ronald Reagan, 1985
========================

Read/watch the links mentioned above. Then ask yourself why one of the biggest human rights organizations in the world (I’ve worked with them some, esp. in protesting religious persecution) says these things:
----------------
"Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed or "disappeared", at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame." Amnesty International

"The USA has been quick to voice its condemnation of human rights violations in some other countries and to stress, by contrast, the wealth of civil and political rights which it guarantees within its borders . . . however, it has failed to deliver these rights to many of its people and there are signs that, unless urgent steps are taken, these rights will be further eroded ." Amnesty International

"It is a paradox that the nation that did so much to articulate and codify human rights in its foundation documents has so consistently resisted the effective functioning of an international framework to protect these principles and values."
Amnesty International - "United States of America-Rights for All", October 1998

"The U.S.A. has refused to recognize any regional human rights treaties: it has not ratified the American Convention on Human Rights, adopted 6y the OAS (Organization of American States) in 1969, and / has not even signed the Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture, the Inter-American Convention on Forced Disappearance of Persons and the Inter-American Convention to Prevent, Punish and Eradicate Violence against Women. "
Amnesty International, October, 1998
----------------

The phenomenal book that got me started in understanding some of these things is called "Economic Democracy" at www.ied.info (the book section). It taught me 2 things:
1) America like most other empires before it has engaged in enormous amounts of exploitation and injustice to sustain it's luxurious living and then creating much propaganda to make this sound justified.

2) Poverty is man-made and is not hard to end. We know the methods and principles to stop it. But, greed, sin and unjust leaders prevent it because they are getting rich by siphoning of the wealth of others. America is VERY deeply involved in keeping economic policies in place that enslave millions and these policies are DIAMETRICALLY opposed to the Bible's economic standards (Republicans are also diametrically opposed to most Biblical economic principles for governments). This directly causes 1 child to die every 3 seconds as well as wars, economic slavery and much other injustice. It is on of the single biggest evils on the planet if not the very biggest evil in my opinion.

I don’t agree with every single thing in “Economic Democracy”. But it was a seminal change in my understanding of economics and power structures and even though I don’t know if the author is Christian or not, it helped me understand in explicit detail why God’s economics are so important for modern society and DO work to end poverty as God stated they would and also why so many people are angry and willing to fight against America and sacrifice their lives.  

Yet again I must reiterate that I'm VERY proud of my country in many ways. And there are many American heroes who have sacrificed enormously and deserve all the honor that we can give them. That is true even of some in the army and CIA. But there are a host of very evil individuals including at the highest levels of govt. who have committed atrocities that in some ways the atrocities of Hitler. This is incontrovertible and documented fact. I have an uncle who lived in Indonesia as president of a Christian school there. America and it’s CIA supported the strong man Suharto for much of his dictatorship including looking the other way when his military was involved in the murder of over 1 million people in that country and blocking news coverage of that.

Read Bin Laden directly instead of the propaganda clips that the news media shows. I'm NO supporter of Islam or of Bin Laden. But, critics are almost never fair to those that they consider enemies. Atheists are almost NEVER fair to Christians. Evolutionists are very seldom fair to creationists. I'm a VERY conservative Christian (pay tithe, believe in literal creation 6,000 years ago, virgin birth, salvation by faith resulting in the conquering of sin, vegetarian, advocate Bible economics and health laws, etc.). But, Fox news is far less moral than almost any other major network in America (But I love their show Prison Break :) ) and this has been documented MANY times. It is an embarrassment to conservatives and Christianity.  
If you read those who are criticized DIRECTLY, you will learn a lot. This is true even of those with who we disagree most strongly. Here’s something directly from Bin Laden who I do not support ONE IOTA. But, we need to understand him accurately if we’re ever going to stop terrorism. 
----------
" I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security. Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?""

And I will talk to you about the reason for those events (911), and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982. As I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential nominee John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.
----------
To close, please read some of these quotes from people who were victims, observers or the direct perpetrators of crimes by America or had important thoughts regarding that issue. This is just the tip of the iceberg of the documented information that exists. We will NEVER be able to stop terrorism if we don’t honestly admit these facts. We will just futilely waste trillions of dollars on programs that don’t actually work to solve terrorism. An INFINITELY wiser way is to actually follow God’s wisdom of admitting and confessing errors and trying to rectify them. Then work to create justice and equal rights for as many as possible as God outlined in his Jubilee economic system. This will be infinitely more effective at reducing terrorism, infinitely cheaper and infinitely easier to implement. 
God bless,
Bryan

“Only after one understands how freedom and rights are being suppressed by the managers of imperial states-even as they preach peace, freedom, justice, rights, and majority rule to their citizens to maintain their beliefs in the morality of their society, and thus assure the continued support of the masses for inflicting such violence upon the world-can one write honest history. If one does not understand that process, one is almost certain to write a history in which, unbeknownst to the author, the background and documentation have been carefully created to give managers-of-state the freedom to suppress other people's rights and transfer their wealth to the imperial center through unequal trades.” Dr. J.W. Smith, author of “Economic Democracy”
---
Before World War II, Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler knew the U.S. military was essentially a weapon to force the Third World to accept its position as provider of wealth to the imperial-centers-of-capital. Alternative history buffs are very familiar with General Butler's description of America as an imperial nation so this is no secret. But history as they know it, and as General Butler knew it while he was helping create it, does not get into high school, or even university, history books:

“I spent thirty-three years and four months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force-the US Marine Corps....And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for big business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.

“Thus I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1913. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. 

“During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."” Frederic F. Clairmont, The Rise and Fall of Economic Liberalism (Goa, India: The Other India Press, 1996), p. 223.
---
"Coming to grips with these U.S./CIA activities in broad numbers and figuring out how many people have been killed in the jungles of Laos or the hills of Nicaragua is very difficult. But, adding them up as best we can, we come up with a figure of six million people killed-and this is a minimum figure. Included are: one million killed in the Korean War, two million killed in the Vietnam War, 800,000 killed in Indonesia, one million in Cambodia, 20,000 killed in Angola ... and 22,000 killed in Nicaragua. These people would not have died if U.S. tax dollars had not been spent by the CIA to inflame tensions, finance covert political and military activities and destabilize societies.

“Certainly, there are other local, regional, national and international factors in many of these operations, but if the CIA were tried fairly in a U.S. court, under U.S. law, the principle of complicity, incitement, riot, and mayhem would clearly apply. In the United States, if you hire someone to commit a murder your sentence may be approximately the same as that of the murderer himself.

“Who are these six million people we have killed in the interest of American national security? Conservatives tell us, "It's a dangerous world. Our enemies have to die so we can be safe and secure." Some of them say, "I'm sorry, but that's the way the world is. We have to accept this reality and defend ourselves, to make our nation safe and insure our way of life."

“Since 1954, however, we have not parachuted teams into the Soviet Union - our number one enemy - to destabilize that country... Neither do we run these violent operations in England, France, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, or Switzerland. Since the mid-1950s they have all been conducted in Third World countries where governments do not have the power to force the United States to stop its brutal and destabilizing campaigns.

“One might call this the "Third World War." It is a war that has been fought by the United States against the Third World. Others call it the Cold War and focus on the anti-Communist and anti-Soviet rationales, but the dead are not Soviets; they are people of the Third World. It might also be called the Forty-Year War, like the Thirty-Year and Hundred-Year Wars in Europe, for this one began when the CIA was founded in 1947 and continues today. Altogether, perhaps twenty million people died in the Cold War. As wars go, it has been the second or third most destructive of human life in all of history, after World War I and World War II.

“The six million people the CIA has helped to kill are people of the Mitumba Mountains of the Congo, the jungles of Southeast Asia, and the hills of northern Nicaragua. They are people without ICBMs or armies or navies, incapable of doing physical damage to the United States the 22,000 killed in Nicaragua, for example, are not Russians; they are not Cuban soldiers or advisors; they are not even mostly Sandinistas. A majority are rag-poor peasants, including large numbers of women and children.

“Communists? Hardly, since the dead Nicaraguans are predominantly Roman Catholics. Enemies of the United States? That description doesn't fit either, because the thousands of witnesses who have lived in Nicaraguan villages with the people since 1979 testify that the Nicaraguans are the warmest people on the face of the earth, that they love people from the United States, and they simply cannot understand why our leaders would want to spend $1 billion on a contra force designed to murder people and wreck the country." John Stockwell, former CIA official and author
---
"I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar-soaked fingers out of the business of these [Third World] nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own.... And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down their throats by Americans."
General David Sharp, former US Marine Commandant
---
"[Nearly 70% of the military budget] is to provide men and weapons to fight in foreign countries in support of our allies and friends and for offensive operations in Third World countries... Another big chunk of the defense budget is the 20% allocated for our offensive nuclear force of bombers, missiles, and submarines whose job it is to carry nuclear weapons to the Soviet Union... Actual defense of the United States costs about 10% of the military budget and is the least expensive function performed by the Pentagon... " Rear Admiral Gene LaRoque, U.S. Navy retired
---
" The propaganda system allows the U.S. Ieadership to commit crimes without limit and with no suggestion of misbehavior or criminality; in fact, major war criminals like Henry Kissinger appear regularly on TV to comment on the crimes of the derivative butchers. " Edward S. Herman
---
" Many of us regard ourselves as mildly liberal or centrist politically, voice fairly pleasant sentiments about our poor children, contribute money to send poor kids to summer camp, feel benevolent. We're not ***; we're nice people. We read sophisticated books. We go to church. We go to synagogue. Meanwhile, we put other people's children into an economic and environmental death zone. We make it hard for them to get out. We strip the place bare of amenities. And we sit back and say to ourselves, "Well, I hope that they don't kill each other off. But if they do, it's not my fault." Jonathan Kozol, educator and author
---
" What would have happened if millions of American and British people, struggling with coupons and lines at the gas stations, had learned that in 1942 Standard Oil of New Jersey [part of the Rockefeller empire] managers shipped the enemy's fuel through neutral Switzerland and that the enemy was shipping Allied fuel? Suppose the public had discovered that the Chase Bank in Nazi-occupied Paris after Pearl Harbor was doing millions of dollars' worth of business with the enemy with the full knowledge of the head office in Manhattan [the Rockefeller family among others?] Or that Ford trucks were being built for the German occupation troops in France with authorization from Dearborn, Michigan? Or that Colonel Sosthenes Behn, the head of the international American telephone conglomerate ITT, flew from New York to Madrid to Berne during the war to help improve Hitler's communications systems and improve the robot bombs that devastated London? Or that ITT built the FockeWulfs that dropped bombs on British and American troops? Or that crucial balI bearings were shipped to Nazi-associated customers in Latin America with the collusion of the vice-chairman of the U.S. War Production Board in partnership with Goering's cousin in Philadelphia when American forces were desperately short of them? Or that such arrangements were known about in Washington and either sanctioned or deliberately ignored?"
Charles Higham, author of Trading with the Enemy, about U.S. corporate collaboration with the *** during WWII
---
"Those in power are blind devotees to private enterprise. They accept that degree of socialism implicit in the vast subsidies to the military-industrial-complex, but not that type of socialism which maintains public projects for the disemployed and the unemployed alike."
William O. Douglas, former U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1969
---
"Our upside down welfare state is "socialism for the rich, free enterprise for the poor." The great welfare scandal of the age concerns the dole we give rich people." William O. Douglas, former U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1969
---
"It is the function of the CIA to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize and teach the American people to hate, so we will let the Establishment spend any amount of money on arms." John Stockwell, former CIA official and author

" The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." George Orwell

"Our men . . . have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of 10 up.... Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to "make them talk," and have taken prisoners people who held up their hands and peacefully surrendered, and an hour later. . . stood them on a bridge and shot them down one by one, to drop into the water below and float down, as examples to those who found their bullet-loaded corpses." Philadelphia Ledger newspaper in 1901, carrying a dispatch from its Manila [Philippines] correspondent during the US war with Spain for the control of the Philippines

"Americans cannot escape a certain responsibility for what is done in our name around the world. In a democracy, even one as corrupted as ours, ultimate authority rests with the people. We empower the government with our votes, finance it with our taxes, bolster it with our silent acquiescence. If we are passive in the face of America's official actions overseas, we in effect endorse them."
Mark Hertzgaard, author
---
"If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue? " Martin Luther King, Jr.
---
"Why should we worry about the death squads? They're bumping off the commies, our enemies. I'd give them more power. Hell, I'd give them some cartridges if I could, and everyone else would too...Why should we criticize them? The death squad - I'm for it." Former president of the American Chamber of Commerce in Guatemala 
---
"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ..." US General Douglas MacArthur
---
"The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully documented but nobody talks about them." Harold Pinter

"There is ...a huge tacit conspiracy between the U.S. government, its agencies and its multinational corporations, on the one hand, and local business and military cliques in the Third World, on the other, to assume complete control of these countries and "develop" them on a joint venture basis. The military leaders of the Third World were carefully nurtured by the U.S. security establishment to serve as the "enforcers" of this joint venture partnership, and they have been duly supplied with machine guns and the latest data on methods of interrogation of subversives."
Edward S. Herman

"The U.S. public is depoliticized, poorly informed on foreign affairs ... and strongly patriotic in the face of a struggle with "another Hitler". Even though the public is normally averse to war, even with modest propaganda efforts ... the public can be quickly transformed into enthusiastic supporters of war."
Edward S. Herman 
---
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." William Blum
 ---
"America's inability to come to terms with revolutionary change in the Third World...has created our biggest international problems in the postwar era. But the root of the problem is not, as many Americans persist in believing, the relentless spread of communism. Rather, it is our own difficulty in understanding that Third World revolutions are primarily nationalist, not communist. Nationalism, not capitalism or communism, is the dominant political force in the modern world. You might think that revolutionary nationalism and the desire for self-determination would be relatively easy for Americans - the first successful revolutionaries to win their independence - to understand. But instead we have been dumbfounded when other peoples have tried to pursue the goals of our own revolution two centuries ago." U.S. Senator Frank Church
---
"We routinely had Latin American students at the School of the Americas (SOA) who were known human rights abusers, and it didn't make any difference to us." Instructor at the School of the Americas in Georgia
---
"... the CIA had been running thousands of operations over the years... there have been about 3,000 major covert operations and over 10,000 minor operations... all designed to disrupt, destabilize, or modify the activities of other countries... But they are all illegal and they all disrupt the normal functioning, often the democratic functioning, of other societies. They raise serious questions about the moral responsibility of the United States in the international society of nations. "John Stockwell, former CIA official and author
---
"There are too many things that embarrass Americans in that report. ... they are asked to believe that their country has been evil. And nobody wants to believe that." Congressman Otis Pike, 1975, about a Congressional report on CIA activities around the world
 ---
"... the United States has given frequent and enthusiastic support to the overthrow of democracy in favor of "investor friendly" regimes. The World Bank, IMF, and private banks have consistently lavished huge sums on terror regimes, following their displacement of democratic governments, and a number of quantitative studies have shown a systematic positive relationship between U.S. and IMF / World Bank aid to countries and their violations of human rights." Edward S. Herman
---
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."
"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."
Henry Kissinger
---
"In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the l990s it triumphed over democracy. " David Korten
 ---
"For the last fifty years we've been supporting right-wing governments, and that is a puzzlement to me...I don't understand what there is in the American character... that almost automatically, even when we have a liberal President, we support fascist dictatorships or are tolerant towards them."
William Shirer
---
"Not a nut or bolt shall reach Chile under Allende. Once Allende comes to power we shall do all within our power to condemn Chile and all Chileans to utmost deprivation and poverty..."
U.S. Ambassador to Chile
---
"There was no corner of the known world where some interest was not alleged to be in danger or under actual attack. If the interests were not Roman, they were those of Rome's allies; and if Rome had no allies, the allies would be invented.... The fight was always invested with an aura of legality. Rome was always being attacked by evil-minded neighbors." Joseph Schumpteter in 1919, describing ancient Rome in a way that sounds eerily like the U.S. today
---
"America, like Britain before her, is now the great defender of the Status Quo. She has committed herself against revolution and radical change in the underdeveloped world because independent governments would destroy the world economic and political system, which assures the United States its disproportionate share of economic and political power ... America's preeminent wealth depends upon keeping things in the underdeveloped world much as they are, allowing change and modernization to proceed only in a controlled, orderly, and nonthreatening way."
Richard Barnet, Intervention and Revolution
---
" U.S. leaders commit war crimes as a matter of institutional necessity, as their imperial role calls for keeping subordinate peoples in their proper place and assuring a "favorable climate of investment" everywhere. They do this by using their economic power, but also ... by supporting Diem, Mobutu, Pinochet, Suharto, Savimbi, Marcos, Fujimori, Salinas, and scores of similar leaders. War crimes also come easily because U.S. Ieaders consider themselves to be the vehicles of a higher morality and truth and can operate in violation of law without cost. It is also immensely helpful that their mainstream media agree that their country is above the law and will support and rationalize each and every venture and the commission of war crimes. "
Edward Herman, political economist and author
---
"The United States supports right-wing dictatorships in Latin America, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East ... because these are the rulers who have tied their personal political destiny to the fortunes of the American corporations in their countries... Revolutionary or nationalist leaders have radically different political constituencies and interests. For them creating "a good investment climate" for the United States and developing their own country are fundamentally conflicting goals. Therefore, the United States has a strong economic interest in keeping such men from coming to power or arranging for their removal if they do."
Richard Barnet, Intervention and Revolution
---
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. " Martin Luther King, Jr.
---
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. " Martin Luther King, Jr.
---
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal. " Martin Luther King, Jr.
---
"There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its 'finger-men' to point out enemies, its 'muscle-men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
---
"Terrorism has replaced Communism as the rationale for the militarization of the country, for military adventures abroad, and for the suppression of civil liberties at home. It serves the same purpose, serving to create hysteria."
Howard Zinn
---
" I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America."
Alexis de Tocqueville, 1805 - 1859, French political thinker and author of Democracy in America
---
"Long before the Soviet Union broke up, a group of Russian writers touring the United States were astonished to find, after reading the newspapers and watching television, that almost all the opinions on all the vital issues were the same. "In our country," said one of them, "to get that result we have a dictatorship. We imprison people. We tear out their fingernails. Here you have none of that. How do you do it? What's the secret?"
from http://pilger.carlton.com/print/47638"> 

Mmitchell,

I have an issue with JUSTICE & FAIRNESS & HUMAN RIGHTS as 1000s of verses in the Bible do.  There is not one iota of unhealthiness in being concerned about them. And neither do they have ONE WHIT to do with men on the moon conspiracy theories since many of the testimonies I have are from the victims themselves AND those who were in charge of committing the crimes or involved in them and admitted it later. To compare that to the men on the moon conspiracy is an ad hominem logical fallacy of the worst kind that ignores the massive amount of suffering that we have caused and it is not Christian either. Read what God said about injustice done by Israeli governments all through the Bible. Do you seriously think he would just turn a blind eye to what we have done which is far worse in both extent and immorality than almost anything they did?  Again, this is NOT all Americans, all govt. leaders or even all military or CIA and there are definitely heroes we should honor and admire.  But, it is not ethical, moral or Christian to deny the 100% documented facts of history which are far more of a moral issue than the homosexual issue is in actual fact.

Bryan

I haven't read this thread lately but I apologize if some has already posted the "official" response from Rick's team.  It was sent out April 9th.  Here it is...

Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

I’m providing this to you in an effort to clarify statements made by Pastor Rick Warren during his April 6th appearance on CNN "Larry King Live."  Several comments he made during that interview have caused confusion which I would like to clarify on his behalf as media representative for Saddleback Church.

Throughout his pastoral ministry spanning nearly 30 years, Dr. Warren has remained committed to the biblical definition of marriage as between one man and one woman, for life -- a position held by most fellow Evangelical pastors.  He has further stressed that for 5,000 years, EVERY culture and EVERY religion has maintained this worldview. 

When Dr. Warren told Larry King that he never campaigned for California's Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues. Because he's a pastor, not an activist, in response to inquiries from church members, he issued an email and video message to his congregation days before the election confirming where he and Saddleback Church stood on this issue.

During the King interview, Dr. Warren also referenced a letter of apology that he sent to gay leaders whom he knew personally.  However, that mea culpa was not with respect to his statements or position on Proposition 8 nor the biblical worldview on marriage.  Rather, he apologized for his comments in an earlier Beliefnet interview expressing his concern about expanding or redefining the definition of marriage beyond a husband-wife relationship, during which he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia.

---

Kristin U. Cole

a. larry ross communications

(p) 615.289.6701

(f) 615.825.9152