Phil,
thanks for your thoughts and spirit in that note. Don't be dis-heartened brother. I am amazed and appalled by much that I have read here as well. But I encourage you to hang around, we benefit greatly from what you have to say,
Mark
Don't know what to say. Maybe down the road we can apologize for calling out sin, for telling a woman that abortion is murder, or telling a bigamist that we don't mean to offend them if we say they are really adulterers. Or maybe we can just be a bit more inclusive. I suppose that for the good of the country we need to move more to the left. Things don't look good in the America of today, even worst the america of tomorrow. Well, we will just have to continue to pray for each other.
Hello Ramon.
Could you help me understand why moving left would benefit the country. You lost me there.
mark
I think he was being a little faceitious in his response. Since the country has moved left we might as well move left to because we want to be tolerant and inclusive too.
From my perspective, the Bible clearly tells us to expect a great apostasy in the last days. I don't think there is any question but that this issue and its growing acceptance in the church on the grounds of "tolerance" and "inclusiveness" is a leading indicator. There is much more, such as "evangelical" pastors arguing that BHO is more pro-life than the prior administration, but let's be honest, it's here and it's growing.
Time to protect your flock.
John, even for a lawyer you have some really good spiritual insight :)
The problem with the coming (already here) apostasy is that those who should be able to spot it easily -- the pastors of Christian churches -- seem to be just as wholly deceived as the common man on the street.
This should not surprise us since the Word says, "In the last days God will send a strong delusion so that people will believe a lie." For Christians, this is a warning. For politicians -- it is a campaign strategy.
You know, Jack, I've thought a lot about this recently. I fear that a blindness has descended on people both politically and spiritually and that it might be a God thing. People have lost the ability to reason, certainly because they have departed from the Word of God. I'm not surprised, distressed about it, but not surprised. Like I said, time to wake up.
Mark,
I DID address what you said. You distorted what I said about the good of the community. That "good" was the most people being ALIVE on THIS earth and for ETERNITY. I was NOT talking in the LEAST about money or killing people for any material thing. That is a complete perversion of what I was talking about. I made it VERY clear what I was referring to as far as the good of the community. I said that meant saving the most lives possible on this earth AND for eternity. How much more clearly can I spell it out for you and why do you feel the need to engage in straw manning and lying about another's position? I suppose it makes it easier for you to think on the surface and just support a preferred political party instead of researched solutions that actually are FAR more effective than anything the republican party has done in 40 years and that are CURRENTLY working year after year after year to prevent 75% more abortions than America is doing currently. I don't support just one party. I support the party or candidates whose policies are closest to what the Bible says govt. should be concerned about and responsible for, not just what the current religious customs are. You and other pastors here have a choice. You can support a political party that has used you constantly in every election for decades to get elected and then done hardly anything in return once elected...(and Christians in govt. have stated that quite a number of republicans are using Christians and laughing at Christians who support them). Or you can look at what actually DOES work to reduce abortion according to research and statistics instead of fancy rhetoric and spending stupendous amounts of time and money on a project that even if it succeeds will do very little to reduce abortion. I'm sorry Mark and others, but you don't really care about reducing abortion. If you really did and that really was your #1 concern, you'd promote socialism since the lowest abortion rates on the planet are almost all in socialist countries (including ones like Denmark which is also 80% Christian). In actual fact, you are putting wealth and money as of more value than the lives of the babies that you profess to care so much about. And sadly, many people are losing their wealth as well. Why do you prefer to listen to propaganda and political posturing and support that instead of really works and is thoroughly documented to work in reducing abortions? The Bible actually speaks VERY strongly first about the govts. responsibility to guarantee equal opportunity and to help the poor, etc. If we do that, it ALSO solves the abortion issue. Socialism is WAY better at doing that than any law against abortion will ever be. But, Socialism is not best. God's jubilee system is best.
It's very sad that people make up their own standards like the pharisees for what they think is right intead of actually following God's standards and what he said was most important. You are just wasting your time if you think that making a law is going to stop abortion. Again, how blunt do I need to be. I live in Korea which is VERY high tech, more than America in many cases. Abortion is illegal here. But, 43% of pregnancies are aborted anyway. And if the supreme court ever did make abortion illegal, then it would go to the states. Even if you were able in a few decades or so to make laws in EVERY state, it wouldn't do very much to stop abortions from happening. Do any of you who support the republicans tooth and nail actually read the statistics for how many abortions happen in places where it's illegal?
Sheesh. I'm sure you're all very sincere Christians and think that you're fighting a worthy fight. I'm sorry that you're under such delusions. Making abortion illegal is NEVER going to stop it or even reduce it that much. Open your eyes. Look around the world a bit. Other countries have tried it. It doesn't work.
There IS a method that DOES work. It's in the Bible. It's when you give every one equal economic opportunity as the Jubilee system did. Socialism is much closer to doing that than capitalism is and this is precisely why they have FAR fewer abortions than people in capitalist countries do.
Someone has spoken of apostasy here. Yes, there's apostasy in many ways. Apostacy from God's economics. Apostasy from the Sabbath that God asked people to REMEMBER. Apostasy from God's balanced way of salvation that includes BOTH faith and works proving that faith as James speaks of and Warren talks about so strongly in his book. Apostasy from the truth in the Bible that God is not a sadist who burns people in hell forever and ever (I've met so many atheists who left Christianity because of this doctrine that makes God into a sadist far eviler than Hitler). Apostasy from the Bible teaching that no person is immortal except God until God gives us immortality at the 2nd coming. This false doctrine has put many in direct touch with the occult and Satanic forces since they thought their dead friends and relatives might be able to talk to them. Christians who used to be involved in Satanism but were rescued have testified that Satanists celebrate that they've deceived churches in this way.
People talk about being concerned about apostasy. But, talk is cheap. The pharisees were in apostasy and they of course wanted to point the finger at others. Same thing is true today. Many of those who protest loudest against apostasy are very deeply involved in it themselves. Hopefully someday pastors who are supposed to know their Bibles and lead people to believe it and do what it says will have a damascus road experience and realize that they've been fighting against God's way and been used by politicians for their own ends. Maybe then they'll start taking the Bible seriously and following what it ACTUALLY says instead of how their traditions have distorted it.
I'm speaking strongly because many of you are pastors and leaders and you are just following the Christian herd and assuming that it's right without really reading. You COULD be fighting for what God has said we should fight for. But, you are not doing that. How can you think that God will accept what you are doing when you are not working in line with what HE has said is most important? Will it be any different for people today than it was for the Pharisees of old who changed God's laws for their own traditions??? Wake up pastors and church leaders? This is not your church. It's GOD'S church and it must be led in GOD'S way. Anything else will at the minimum waste humongous amounts of time and money and often it will cause loss of life on this earth and much more tragically for eternity.
It's just so sad to see the enormous wasted potential that could be used so much more effectively for God if Christians would put their energy into the areas that GOD has said are actually important instead of being duped by the propaganda of politicians (and that sometimes means democrats too, not just republicans).
I truly wish for you all to have a great and effective ministry and to receive rich rewards from God when he comes. But, it is complete insanity to think that this will ever happen when you are replacing God's instructions with human traditions and it is 100% certain that you are doing exactly that in a variety of areas. Wake up. You are not God. God is your boss and His ways alone are best. You are responsible to follow HIS ways, not your own traditions, preferences, political parties, biased Christian leaders or whatever. Huge numbers of people will be lost because pastors don't do things God's way. Conservative pastors are at least as guilty of this as liberal pastors. Liberals are like the Saducees. They often don't believe or distort God's doctrines. Conservatives like the pharisees replace God's commands with their own traditions and think it is not a problem. To BOTH, Jesus says they are worshipping in vain. Read it for yourselves in Mark 7:
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of religious law asked him, “Why don’t your disciples follow our age-old tradition? They eat without first performing the hand-washing ceremony.”
6 Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.7 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’[d]8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”9 Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.
10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’[f]
11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’
12 In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents.
13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”Being a conservative Christian or pastor doesn't even begin to guarantee that you are following God. Neither does being liberal. It didn't in Jesus' day and it doesn't now. If you don't want to be worshipping God in vain, don't follow the herd. Don't just believe everything you were taught in seminary. Check the Bible and what it ACTUALLY says and follow that no matter whether it is liberal or conservative. THAT is what being biblical and genuinely Christian is all about.
Bryan
Moving left would have these benefits at a minimum:
1) We would be FAR more in line with God's economics which he stated are critical for individuals, churches and governments in over 2,000 verses.
2) That would directly reduce abortions in MAJOR ways and very quickly. It's been demonstrated in many socialist countries such as Finland, that when you provide equal opportunity and support for the poor, they don't choose to do abortions anywhere close to as much as Americans do.
3) It would solve much of the poverty issues in America which would reduce crime, reduce divorces, reduce war and other things.
There is MUCH more. But, actually I do NOT advocate all of the positions on the right OR left. Christians are not called to identify with a political party. They are called to identify with God's policies in the Bible and then vote and use their money and influence accordingly. There are some policies on the left that are absolutely crucial in the Bible that the right completely ignores. There are some policies on the right that are very important that the left ignores. The key is to support God's principles no matter which side they come from.
God bless,
Brian:
I've known some of these guys here for years and you have no idea of the character and conduct of the people you are criticizing. I wondered when you would play the Pharisee card.
The first rule of holes is when you are in one, stop digging. The second rule is if you insist on digging, stop and ask for directions. It's pretty good advice.
QUOTE It's very sad that people make up their own standards like the pharisees END QUOTE
I take it you are calling everyone else a Pharisee as your position is the only correct one. As I understand it, your position is the very definition of what it means to be a Pharisee.
I'm still waiting for the biblical text that supports your position that some abortions are justified. I'm still waiting for your biblical rebuttal of the verses that speak of God "knowing a person in the womb."
I'm a little uncomfortable even replying to your babble because it gives the appearance of credibility -- which your view certainly does not have.
Jack
QUOTE Making abortion illegal is NEVER going to stop it END QUOTE
It is this type of logic that makes you look so stupid. Making robbery (or pick any crime) will not eliminate the crime. Making such immoral acts as abortion, robbery, rape, etc., though it will not eliminate the crime altogether, it certainly slows such acts down.
Your logic is remarkably stupid -- but I will comment you for being consistent.
QUOTE You are responsible to follow HIS ways, not your own traditions, preferences, political parties, END
I don't recall ever mentioning my political party so I don't know how Bryan draws such conclusions. Actually, I do know how -- hasty generalizations.
In fact, I'm not a registered member of any political party. In California you can register, "undeclared."
Sorry to disappoint you, Bryan.
QUOTE it is 100% certain that you are doing exactly that in a variety of areas END Gee, 100% certainty. That sure sounds like a Pharisee to me ;)
QUOTE Read it for yourselves in Mark 7: END Thank you Bryan for pointing out Mark 7. I don't know how I've missed that in 31 years of ministry! What would the church do without you!
QUOTE promote socialism since the lowest abortion rates on the planet are almost all in socialist countries END
In some these countries also have the highest incidents of murdering discontents -- which is why I guess you have decided to remain in the safety of this horrible capitalist country, America.
By the way . . . I have not declared that capitalism (free market economy) is perfect. It certainly requires the foundation of biblical controls and principles -- such as charity for example.